To think that Trump is not going to honor any agreement about Ukraine

Arm Ukraine properly, and not just trickle down old equipment in miniscule numbers? Russia will go home with tail between legs in few weeks in this case, and it probably result in a coup / civil war that will dethrone Putin and his clique and defang Russia (that is also likely to break down into multiple states in this case).

All military analysts agree that Ukraine was given just enough to survive, but not enough to win or even seriously push back. Used as a cheap human shield really to protect "posher" Europe.

Trump is trying to bully Putin too. He keeps saying Putin will agree to the peacekeeper Nato troops. But Putis has said that was not spoken about and does not look happy.
I think Trump may bite more than he can chew.

I think it depends on who you are looking at from what angle. For UK I think we have officially shown we are happy to appease Trump and therefore Russia. We have more than likely told Ukraine this is the best deal too.

Personally I think we are stuck because of Brexit and are at risk of finding ourselves siding with Russia and US; of course that is only a risk if you see that as a threat to free speech/democracy/gender and diversity rights.

Of course Ukraine is getting screwed over. It's being strong armed into giving away its natural resources, the US are moving in to mine, it's giving away 20% of it's land. There's no security guarantee and who is paying to rebuild the country?

Yes, we need to see US and Russia as a joint entity now.

@UnderHisEeyore it's hard to match this to the media jubilation on the meeting between Trump and Starmer

Do you think it was a success? Or more just theatre, or other

Jesus it's not world class negotiation. It's a blunder bus

He just hates any criticism and loves flattery and is very fickle

He will have backtracked on everything within a week.
Saying he didn't call Z a dictator. Pathetic

@hamstersarse

On him calling Zelensky a dictator.. I really don’t think people are used to seeing proper hard negotiation in action,

Trump wants peace and some money back, Zelensky has been lauded as a superhero for years (in many ways correctly) but he can’t negotiate peace if he just slates Putin and lauds Zelensky. He needs to put Z down a peg or 2, ensure he knows he doesn’t just get exactly what he wants, because that’s actually impossible. Meanwhile, he can’t just slate Putin otherwise he won’t engage at all.

Its negotiation, world class negotiation and however much you want to believe all the Baddy Trump rhetoric, the facts speak for themselves

World class negotiation? How would you know? What I know is that Trump is not experienced in diplomacy, nor does he show any delicacy of statesmanship or tact. I'd expect those are key skills for any negotiator. Putin, on the other hand, has been in control for many years. Before he was President, he was KGB and FSB. He knows what he is doing and would play Trump like a Steinway.

Trump doesn't need to bring Zelenskyy down at all - he could make no comment there, and likewise, he doesn't need to slate Putin, either. Just learning to make no stupid public comment would be a fantastic start.

I think this is the fundamental point.

And Putin certainly knows this which means he has very little reason to negotiate with Europe.

Yes, we need to see US and Russia as a joint entity now.

I do think millions more deaths is incomprehensible. Too many young lives.

There was no winning, just funding, fighting and deaths

I have not heard or seen any such sentiment from any European leader in 3 years, they haven’t even tried to talk to Putin.

Then you've not been paying attention. Macron has spoken to Putin 13 times since the war began, Scholz (Germany) 11 times, Michel (EU) 3 times, Meloni (Italy) 2 times, and Finland, Norway, Luxembourg and Hungary.

www.statista.com/statistics/1298459/world-leaders-that-spoke-to-putin-and-zelenskyy/

So what is your preference?

What would you preferred to have happened?

I find it so crazy that people criticise Trump for ending a war. His stated aims are to stop the needless killing of young Ukrainian and Russian soldiers.

By siding with the invader, and further empowering a dangerous dictator. If Trump had been in power in the 1940, he'd probably have been blaming Britain and France for not giving in to Germany, to 'save lives'.

Good points here

On him calling Zelensky a dictator.. I really don’t think people are used to seeing proper hard negotiation in action,

Trump wants peace and some money back, Zelensky has been lauded as a superhero for years (in many ways correctly) but he can’t negotiate peace if he just slates Putin and lauds Zelensky. He needs to put Z down a peg or 2, ensure he knows he doesn’t just get exactly what he wants, because that’s actually impossible. Meanwhile, he can’t just slate Putin otherwise he won’t engage at all.

Its negotiation, world class negotiation and however much you want to believe all the Baddy Trump rhetoric, the facts speak for themselves

I find it so crazy that people criticise Trump for ending a war. His stated aims are to stop the needless killing of young Ukrainian and Russian soldiers.

I have not heard or seen any such sentiment from any European leader in 3 years, they haven’t even tried to talk to Putin. Just think about that for more than 1 second. Not one attempt to stop the bloodshed, instead, just feeding enough money / weapons to keep Ukraine trugging along, killing thousands of people every week. How long were they going to let that go on? What was the plan? Did they really believe Ukraine could win this war ‘on their own’?

I really think people need to think a bit more about what lines they’ve been fed about Trump because if you look at the cold hard facts, he is the only person to try and stop this war

Fascinating to watch how this plays out.

Everyone goes loop de loop over a letter and now the conversation on minerals is normalised.

US and Putin get the resources. But we think we've played a blinder and are happy

It's kind of a master class in shifting the landscape

@MarsScarlet thank you for the translation. I still think US and Russia are now in cahoots and Trump has seen he doesn't need to be the one to break the rules to invade but can benefit from the natural resources by offering protection against Russia. It's a world racket. Starmer has buttered Trump up for the cameras but I don't think Trump is ready (or his supporters more to the point) to admit that his eyes are now on reducing US prices by raiding Europe with Russia as their muscle. He's retracted calling Zelensky a dictator because he is enabling this in Ukraine.

Exactly this.
Europe, and I include UK in this, will have to go solo, starting with the ceasefire for Ukraine and the removal of Putin from power. Because Europe cannot be safe till Putin and company are gone, preferably to jail in a lost island without internet or mail service.
Otherwise, next we know we are fighting and all Europe war, yet again. At least this time, all Europe will fight together, instead of against each other.
These men are beyond stupid. They think the fake sense of power they have today trumps the economic growth, tech growth, research development and general wellbeing that long lasting peace brings.

I do worry about any state visit. I don't think Trump will be warmly received by the public.
I'm not living in the Trump/Brexit/Putin loving bubble though and I know there are millions of these people.

I disagree with that last sentence. I dont think Trump is setting the agenda for domestic policy but the international aspects are all him (and the rest of his administration don't really seem to agree with him but will go along for the ride).

This.

I don't really think any of these international agreements are very secure. NATO is just as happy to say an agreement is no longer relevant or useful.

What keeps them in place is that they are useful, so it's pragmatic.

So to me I suppose the question is, will the US consider the results of these deals useful? And Is Trump differernt in that he will go back on an agreement that is useful to him because he is in some way perverse?

I'm not sure. I do tend to think it is probably others I his government that are really setting the agenda, and they don't care too much how Trump himself understand the agenda.

Obviously Trump cannot be trusted to sit the right way round on a toilet.

He wants the Nobel Peace prize, though it would be a larf if it was given to Zelenskyy instead.

Yep