Multi Millionaires Complaining Again

“Does a person need to be born into a certain family to have knowledge of farming? Could a person who had knowledge of agriculture not do it just as well if not better?
Current system is a closed shop that benefits only a few, hence why they are crapping themselves at having to part with a tax dime.”

It takes years to have the knowledge and expertise to run a farm. It’s like the longest, most underpaid apprenticeship there is.
There are those not born to farming who go to college and take on a council tenancy or a well priced tenancy, but sadly they tend to fail as they don’t have the decades of experience behind them like those born on farms and brought up with that amount of work being the norm.

Typically on a farm there are three generations - the older ones who are slowing down, playing an increasingly lesser role. The middle generation, increasing responsibility, taking the main role, the endless paperwork, the day to day decisions, and the younger, starting very young feeding lambs/calves, helping a parent with some tractor work, being immersed in farm life, and as they grow older learning the ropes, going to do some contracting as older teenagers, maybe working on other farms until they too start to take on more responsibility on their family farm. A farmer is learning right from being a baby.

For others wanting to farm, my son for example, the road is not as easy. He started working on a farm at 15, started driving tractors at 16, found some contracting work locally so gained some experience that way. He may one day become a farm manager, or a dairy manager.

Taking on the full responsibility of a farm is like having a few jobs in one. You’re the zoo keeper, the secretary, the manager, the night shift, the transport manager. In busy times (calving, lambing, silaging, harvest etc) you may work up to 20 hours a day without any extra pay or anyone to come and take over from you. If you want a holiday you need to coordinate it to a degree where you probably won’t relax (more when you’re a livestock farmer, where it literally never stops), in fact many farmers I know don’t have holidays beyond the odd weekend away. Very few people would take this on willingly, and if they did they’d want a better rate of pay than farmers generally get. It can come across as a closed shop because who in their right mind would want that lifestyle for such a low and unpredictable return?

They’re not crapping themselves because they might have to “part with a tax dime” (which is ridiculous as they already pay tax just like everyone else), they’re crapping themselves because their houses are tied up with the business in a way that no other business is. Because they can see how little they are valued, even at a precarious point in history where farming should be one of our top priorities. Because they’re sick and tired of people calling them multi millionaires and wilfully ignoring the hardships they go through. Because they’re sick of idiots begrudging them having anything nice, most of which is necessary farm equipment anyway and not bought for luxury lifestyle reasons.
Because a large portion of the population seemingly doesn’t understand what it takes to produce food, and how little farmers are paid in order to do that.
Because so many people are coming after them to try to control billionaires who find loopholes to avoid paying tax, but don’t care that they’re hurting people who provide our food in the meantime.

Go after the billionaires, stop millionaires from registering their businesses in low tax rate countries, close the loopholes, but leave farmers alone when it’s blatantly obvious that the loudest voices don’t have a clue what the potential consequences are of these actions.

This

They just want to drive out small family farms because they want to build solar farms and houses instead and think that is more productive somehow.
Whereas most of us respect the hard work of generations of family farmers and want them to continue and be subsidised. Whilst at the same time agreeing that the loophole for rich to buy agricultural land and sit on it speculatively does need closing. So does the property companies sitting on land. They are separate issues. And a competent Government would be able to target one without harming the other!

They all used to - famers benefiited from APR (Agricultural Property Relief) and small family businesses from BPR (Business Property Relief). This government has targetted both in a deliberate attempt to drive out small business and ensure that wealth remains in the hands of large corporates and the ultra rich.

Any profit re-invested in land will have been taxed - there are no capital allowances on land. Any commercial farmer replaces machinery when it is more economic to do so than maintaining the existing machinery, which is often becuase new equipment is more efficent, has higher throughput, uses less fuel. These are all sensible businesses decisions, not decisions to 'not show profit' Any commercial organisation in any sector follows same approach.

And yes, the land doesn't disappear. But, as posted above, which is more likley - it ending up in the hands of enthusiastic, keen, innovative farmers (which, incidently is what many young farmer already are) or in the hands of the ultra rich mega land owners who see it as extension of controlling the food supply chain...? Bearing in mind the anti small business approach of this government, my mony is on the second outcome...

Me too.

I live among farmers and most of them are really struggling. I do not recognise the rich stereotype that some people are portraying on here.

The ones I know are beleaguered on so many sides: by the weather, by legislation and regulation, by disease, by high fuel costs, by the ongoing effects of Brexit, by rural theives and vandals, by poor returns, and now the government does this! It’s the nail in the coffin for many of them.

Most farmers here work long hours in all weathers for very little reward as it is. People underestimate what a stressful, perilous, dangerous, and skilled job it is. Many are one or two spoiled harvest away from financial ruin anyway after the weather we have been having of late.. They have to be vets, horticulturalists, machines operators, mechanics, accountants, salespersons , builders,all in one, as well as custodians of our land. There is a reason why poor mh health is rife in farming communities.

I voted for Keir Starmer but now I feel nothing but shame and regret for doing so.

If there are any farmers on this thread please can you tell me if your business has been affected by loss of BPS subsidy? What percentage of this was your income? Did you sell land because of it?

Did you apply for any of the Farming Equipment and Technology fund grants (worth 107 million over the last 3 rounds).

You’re wrong. Margins are not that tight and there are always economies that can be made and diversification options to supplement incomes. It’s just about being creative, extremely thrifty and forward thinking. Welcome to the world of business. Which is what farming is in afraid. I’m from farming so I’m not talking out of my arse here. Leaving money untouched for future generations is why some of our farmer friends actually keep farming in the first place. Even under Starmer it’s a way better deal than everyone else gets in this regard. It’s easy to moan though when you live a relatively ‘secluded’ life not seeing real street level poverty and the miserable grind of most peoples ordinary lives. Farmers live in a bit of an echo chamber sometimes I guess. It’s not necessary greed just it’s easy to be naive about the grimness of life off the farm for ordinary working folk too. We’ve just got to suck it up and do our part. It’ll just mean farms evolve in the future to be different shapes and sizes than now. Food will still be produced. Life’s not giving anyone any breaks at the moment. We farmers just have to join the club and be like other business owners. Tighten your belt and make sure your kids work hard at school. Best advice anyone can give in todays world I’m afraid.

@ObelixtheGaul

"But that's been the case for years, hasn't it? It's not something that's just come about because of a policy that's only just come into being.

As I said upthread, it's not that I agree with this government on this, it's more that people are acting as though this, and this alone, is the cause of the downfall of the farming industry. It isn't. It's one of a myriad of policies, consumer habits, etc, that have been chipping away at the industry for years.

A lot of people outside the farming community are totally unaware of the steady erosion of subsidies under previous governments. A lot of people don't understand how supermarkets have been negatively affecting the industry by paying pennies for produce.

In the last few years, there have been numerous concerns raised about the plight of farmers and the need for them to diversify to survive. The issue I have is that some people are only caring about this now because of this one policy. The last government continued to steadily bleed farmers dry and not a word did we hear about it. Suddenly, the collapse of the industry is imminent and it's all Labour's fault. It's not anything like as simple as that."

Yes this is the problem I have with the protests that they are blaming the newly installed Labour government for the last 10 years of issues in farming. One farmer actually said to me that it was the straw that broke the camel's back!

Reform have added it to their barrage of ammunition to try and topple Labour.

They should have been protesting supermarkets, land prices and Brexit policies long before this.

The person picking veg in a muddy field in the rain, wont be a farmer, it'll be a migrant worker...

Same with many of the harder manual jobs, farmers employ people, either FT or contractors.
Many jobs are also mechanised, the operator will be in the dry, in a warm AC tractor.
There is now even automated milking! no getting kicked in the head or covered in shit.

We keep being told farmers are older etc so its obvious that many are not doing what you say.

Having done both roles, farm and office, the office one can be mentally very draining, the out door role can be invigorating, even in poor weather.

Do you know anyone who wants to work 15 hour days in the elements? I don’t. Most people complain about a 1 hour commute and say they’re ’absolutely shattered’ after 8 hours in an office (me included!).

While some people move into farming, a lot of the time it’s a family business and a lifestyle that runs in the blood.

It's not even going to help them achieve that.

We do need people earning, not just cut everyone down a la Labour

Too many people begrudge anyone having any reward for hard work

Absolutely this! Posters on here seem to loathe ambition and anyone earning well, they seem to think the only people who should live a ‘very comfortable life’ are those on benefits. It’s a joke.

But that's been the case for years, hasn't it? It's not something that's just come about because of a policy that's only just come into being.

As I said upthread, it's not that I agree with this government on this, it's more that people are acting as though this, and this alone, is the cause of the downfall of the farming industry. It isn't. It's one of a myriad of policies, consumer habits, etc, that have been chipping away at the industry for years.

A lot of people outside the farming community are totally unaware of the steady erosion of subsidies under previous governments. A lot of people don't understand how supermarkets have been negatively affecting the industry by paying pennies for produce.

In the last few years, there have been numerous concerns raised about the plight of farmers and the need for them to diversify to survive. The issue I have is that some people are only caring about this now because of this one policy. The last government continued to steadily bleed farmers dry and not a word did we hear about it. Suddenly, the collapse of the industry is imminent and it's all Labour's fault. It's not anything like as simple as that.

Funny how those who live and work in farming communities often have different opinions.

I work a minimum wage job, I work hard, but having worked on farms I know that my current working hard is nothing on a farmer’s day!
Too many people begrudge anyone having any reward for hard work, and for farms these rewards can be few and far between.
People begrudge them having 4x4 cars, but have you tried pulling a trailer full of sheep or cows with a corsa? Tried driving down a field in a Skoda?
They’re begrudged for having expensive equipment (also touted as evidence of vast wealth), but they literally can’t do the job without it, and the majority of the time the equipment is bought against the value of the land, so the farmers are in massive debt with no choice to be otherwise.
They are begrudged for having good coats - but they’re out in all weathers, a Primark coat that would suit me fine just doesn’t cut it.
There’s so much spite and misunderstanding. It’s like Labour has turned into a group who want everyone to have nothing. It will backfire on them.

Round here most farmers are hanging on, but when a farm stops production (old farmer can no longer carry on, has no one to take over sort of scenario) the farm is sold, but typically farmers looking to increase their farms can’t afford the inflated prices paid by wealthy incomers.

It’s happening, but the IHT will hit more harshly. I’m not even sure if they’ll be able to arrange gifting farms down to the next generation, as it’s my understanding that once gifted the giftee can’t live on the property. I’m not sure how correct that is, but hopefully there’s a way to sort it.

I know IHT is changing for other businesses as well, but farming is the one industry where the family home is generally 100% tied to the business, which makes it more tricky to manage.

I generally find farmers havent a clue what it is to be poor, working hard for a living and not own a single cent never mind hundreds of acres of land. Look at that disgraceful attack on the nhs from mumda.

Our whole economy is collapsing. Congratulations neoliberalism and greed.

So it's happening anyway before IHT even kicks in? Loads of farms round here went up for sale when the loss in subsidies was announced as without it a lot just can't make a profit.

@morph
Yes I've not seen anything much at all about the effect of BPR and certainly no protests.
The protests have been adopted and pushed by the ultra right wing media and Farage who shows up in his flat cap and yellow trousers whenever he gets the chance.
It's a gift to them really!

The government should have perhaps done this a couple of years in once they had a feel of things.

“To all claiming no farmers no food, The land doesn't disappear just belong it belongs somebody else instead of Farmer Giles who's family had it since 1899.”

Except it does disappear from farming.
Land round here (very rural, lots of farms) that comes up for sale never goes to farmers. They are generally outbid by locals wanting paddocks for their horses, which drives up the value of land and keeps many farmers from expanding. For example a 1 acre field on paper may be worth around £10k but the bidding wars from wealthy locals drive it up to £40k +.

Farms that come up for sale because a farming generation ends, and there’s no one to run the farm, do not sell to farmers, not the house or the land. They end up in the hands of rich city folk who may or may not live there, some use their new property as a weekend retreat, with once productive livestock-filled pastures neatly mown to look like a city park, and a few ponies dotted around.

I wish they’d shout about this more. It must be decimating family business. I do thing farmers are disproportionately affected due to the value of land but also the cultural aspect of farmers not retiring and handing things over. The latter is something that needs to change in the industry.

Inheritance tax has changed for all businesses so someone dying whilst they owned a factory would now be in the same position as a farmer and have the value of the factory, machinery etc. included as part of their estate and potentially have IHT due, it’s just that farming and the changes to apr seem to have been picked up by the mainstream media and there’s been protests etc whereas changes to bpr haven’t got a mention outside the specialist media and potentially effects more businesses

Till they tax rollover land prices won’t come down. There is still a 20% discount on IHT for the big boys too.

Yes and a lot of these live on their premises too.
Farmers are a cog in the wheel of food production.

Prices of land really need to come down - it's ridiculous at the moment. Farms will be worth less once this happens.

Also because of Brexit, EU farmers can produce the same food cheaper because they are paid subsidies...
let's hope this government see sense and start moves towards the EU again.