To be horrible to my four year old?

This sounds really grating. We're all human and snap sometimes when we're stressed. I know there's some perfect parents who've never shouted at their kids but the majority have lost it at one time or another (and some kids are much harder work than others).

I would try the Ross Greene Plan B method or similar adapted for a 4yo.

Yes of course YABU to talk to a four-year-old like that. He's only little. Having said that, I understand from personal experience that toddlers and preschoolers can be extremely difficult and oppositional. They seem to know how to press alll your buttons and this is fairly typical behaviour. He's trying to find out what you willl put up with by arguing and pushing the boundaries. Be firm but kind while dealing with him and do not give in, either to his whingeing or your irritation.

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You might find the Emily Oster podcast in on ‘Discipline’ interesting.

Speaking as someone who has done the Dr Becky course and read the Phillipa Perry book (I guess these are the two main ‘gurus’ if you’re parenting in the UK in 2025) I felt that neither especially resonated with me and the podcast helped me appreciate why. While I completely disagree with the idea of smacking and very rarely get cross, I also dislike the highly empathetic, softly softly parenting from a script approach of Dr Becky et al (‘I hear that you’re angry right now’ etc) I prefer responding like an imperfect human and sometimes for me this means reacting in a way that’s a bit cross or that lets my child see my annoyance. It feels a bit taboo at the moment to parent in this way.

Argue with a Four year old......
The teenage years will be interesting...Brace yourself @BeGoldHedgehog yes that's right sometimes I do, I'm being honest and a lot of people probably do the same and are too scared to say it because of all the judgement on here. I'm not perfect, sometimes I loose my cool and I'm learning new parenting skills everyday. Your post is coming across very judgy and presumptuous. You have no idea how frequently this happens and if it will affect my child. I also think that it's good for kids to see that they have pushed their parents too far sometimes and that whining and arguing isn't going to get them the results they want.

This will sound harsh, but it doesn’t sound like you like him very much. Your tone and words are harsh and I feel sorry for him to be honest.

If he has very unusual behaviour, perhaps see a pediatrician, do some classes, etc. See what resources are available.

At the moment it sounds like you are writing him off as being problematic long term, which is very sad. It is also understandable it is difficult sometimes, and I hope you can find the support and help you need!

I actually think shock and awe has a place. He needs to know his behaviour is not acceptable. It sounds like you have tried many ways to correct it but nothing has worked. Kids need boundaries and need to know where those are. He's just discovered a hard boundary and now knows to back off a bit. It doesn't mean he can never disagree again. It does mean he cannot disagree just for the sake of it.

Please look into doing some parenting courses

From what you wrote it does sound like a personal attack, but I think the frustration is understandable.

Maybe a better way to frame it is to talk about the behaviour. Because it's totally fine to explain to a small child that their behaviour has consequences, and sometimes they need telling because they're small and their brains are a long way from fully developed.

I can't see a problem with telling a toddler that if they keep hitting or biting the other children won't want to play with them. They won't. And then you talk about how to deal with feelings.

I also think it's ok to tell a 4 year old that their behaviour is making things difficult/unenjoyable and it makes you not want to take them to the farm park or whatever. In a calm moment, talk about what would have been a better way of dealing with frustrations. They do need to know that you have feelings too.

But also yes it's hard and don't beat yourself up about shouting once. You're clearly trying incredibly hard to do the right thing.

Oh OK, cause that makes it so much better then 🙄

Exactly.

Its fine to tell your child off or pull them up on their behaviour. It's fine to 'lose it' once in while, as in shout. It's NOT fine to be emotionally abusive or scream your head off.

Is his ‘monologue’ actually a response to you engaging him? So are you saying things like “what a lovely day, shall we have ice cream, oooh a duck”. I mean it’s not wrong if you are, that’s what most parents would do. But what happens if you take him on a walk or just sit on a bench and don’t talk to him, Maybe he’s feeling pressure to perform?

My 3 yo is very difficult with tantrums and whining (always has been tbh, he started having proper tantrums before he could even walk...). It's very similar to what you're describing and I can understand how overwhelming it can be after a full day (/week/year) of it.

Not saying that it will work for you, but if he's like this we send him to his room. He's got his conforter there, books, toys, etc, and until recently his dummy. (And we still have a camera in his room so can check on him).
Most of the time, it helps him calm down much quicker than anything else. He knows (and we always tell him) that he can come down when he feels better and is ready to be with us. Sometimes he comes down after 10 min, other times he stays much longer playing or reading his book.

Is he an only child?

My kid just has me to whine at, beg, repeat, act up…

I think when there’s more children, they can speak to each other at their own level.

To an adult, everything you describe is annoying!

However, you need to recognise four year old behaviour,

My DH takes our DS too personally & shouts at him.

It doesn’t work, actually. Makes him worse!

And, if you find it does work… Well, do you want that?

Dd was like that at 4- the old word would be wilful and rebellious and reckless. She did it in public in France once, running away in defiance and putting herself in considerable danger, from which she was hauled back by an elderly French woman who told her off in French so loudly and angrily she behaved for the rest of the holiday. And I thought, 'thank you, thank you, thank you," because it worked. And I can't tell you how often afterwards I wished that woman would reappear and do what I could not.

If this is how you behave with your 4 year old, when they reach 14 you won't have a relationship left. They will hate you. The relationship will be horrendous and by adulthood you'll be NC

You need to turn this around NOW. Get professional help and never speak to your child like that again. If you feel anger bubbling, remove yourself, calm down and come back.

Give him lots of positive attention

look up low demand parenting

It's not ideal but it sounds like he's been deliberately pushing buttons.

I think you need to go nuclear on this behaviour. Correct it every time. "You're NOT going upstairs!" "Who do you think you are speaking to? Apologise for that rude tone of voice or we will not be going out/ watching a movie/ whatever treat you have planned," and then follow through with it. "I don't want an ice-cream!" Fine. No backsies, the offer of an ice-cream is now off the table. Make him learn that being rude and argumentative leads to losing out, and tantrum-ing about the consequences gets him nowhere.

It sounds extreme and I wouldn't do anything like that for occasional attitude but if it's as constant as you say, it needs nipping in the bud.

It seems as if maybe the arguing with him has given him too much perceived power. Eg you say 'I'm just nipping upstairs' then he moans about that - you don't have to argue with him, just get on with your day. Go up and do whatever it was you had planned.
You've got into a negative loop so need to just move on from the shit stuff while positively reinforcing the good stuff. Not angrily move on, like on a huff, but just neutrally.
Not sure if the ice cream was van or freezer, but if it is van ice cream.
I'm getting ice cream. Would you like ice cream? There won't be ice cream later, I'm only queueing one time.
Then you either get him ice cream or don't, and ignore any whinging. If he whinges and you go back, he's getting a reward for the whinging. He won't reject ice cream more than 3 times (assuming he likes ice cream, I had an odd child who didn't!)

I know the other example was your brother, but you can make normal nice stuff a reward. Once you've sat nicely through my tape, then it is your turn to choose. If you xyz then it won't be your turn.
Constant rewarding of the behaviour you want to see (and your attention is a big reward to a 4 year old along with choice / control).
Good luck!

I think this is a really interesting point about dynamics from past relationships. It does sound like his behaviour is tapping into something from the past which may be why it is so infuriating. As this poster suggests, your son’s behaviour is maybe reminding you of how you felt in the relationship with your brother? You might want to unpick this with support of a therapist (if time and money) or again Philippa Perry’s book helps with this stuff.

All of this

Shouting isn't the problem. What you said to him, is the problem. Even if you said it softly, it will still have had an impact. I'm not part of the 'gentle' lobby, or a perfect parent, far from it, but I am a counsellor. I'm sure that he will remember the good things/fun times you have together but those things we say in anger or without thinking, often stay with them for longer. Many adults can recall painful hurtful childhood comments from parents.

So from this thread I have learnt I’m not a gentle parent! I also have a four year old and don’t think what you said was especially terrible. Stating that ‘If you behave poorly, nobody will want to be your friend’ seems pretty reasonable to me! It’s accurate! You’ve also been teaching him about natural consequences - push too far and mummy will get cross and say ‘you’re making me miserable’ and that’s really not nice to hear. So he’s now being more considerate. I agree with other PPs that his behaviour is completely normal and developmentally appropriate by the way.

I’m quite strict with my four year old in a way I wouldn’t have been when he was 2 or 3 and didn’t understand right from wrong or rudeness as a concept. He gets it now and I think it’s my job to hold him accountable, with plenty of love and support, of course. But he is old enough to take some responsibility for his actions.

I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend

😲😲😥😥😥😥😥

I don't blame you to be honest. My DD was very similar at 4 and I've waited for her to 'grow out of it' for 4 more years. She's an absolute pain now at 8 and lives for an argument. Sometimes kids need to see that their behaviour has consequences.