To wonder what will happen about the government's 'free' breakfast club proposal?!

Redlocks30 · 2025-02-23T13:30:31+00:00

They have been talking a lot today about saving families £450 a year, but I just can't see how this is going to work? They are paying 60p per child per day, which might pay for a Weetabix and a bit of toast, but doesn't take into account the staffing (and any energy costs) that this will require! We already have a small school with a successful breakfast club running, with smallish numbers but all can sit down and eat together. Parents pay a reasonable amount for it and this pays for 1/2 members of staff, depending on numbers. If this was opened up to all parents as a free option, we simply wouldn't have enough space to put everyone in the hall-it would be mayhem. The school budget doesn't have any spare cash in it for TA staffing costs (normally paid for by parents paying) so where are schools expected to find this money from?

justanothercrapbedtime · 05/03/2025 15:49

@Greenfencebrowntree

Yup pretty much whole school - it's a 2 form entry

The gate to the playground opens at 830 - parents can't go past that point - it's manned by staff - I've never enquired to be honest if classrooms are open/all staff there at 830 - I just know the register closes at 9 and after that you are marked as late

Greenfencebrowntree · 05/03/2025 15:35

justanothercrapbedtime · 05/03/2025 15:24

So I know a few schools who are on the trial and I've enquired ....it's all a bit of a con really....school gates open at 830am which is when 99% of parents and current before school clubs/childminders drop off. But school doesn't officially start until 9am....

Schools on the trial are starting the free breakfast club at 825am ...as technically then that's the 30 minutes before lessons start ...

So uptake is going to be zero since it would save parents a whopping 5 minutes 😂

What a con

I'm surprised that "99%" of parents at your local schools drop their kids off a full half hour early. Is nobody ever late for school?! At our school, the school gates open 20 mins before the start of the day, and classrooms open 10 mins before. Certainly in the infants at least, I don't notice many parents leave their child in the playground before the classrooms are open.

Annoyingly, our breakfast club actually closes its doors 15 mins before the school gates open - so there's a gap where you might be left standing outside the gates. I'd love to have the option at doing drop off at 8.30 like the parents you know, instead of either rushing to get to breakfast club before it closes, or waiting an extra half hour.

justanothercrapbedtime · 05/03/2025 15:29

1SillySossij · 05/03/2025 07:09

You understand the initiative is about enabling parents to start work eatlier which will make more jobs open up to them and get them off benefits.
Feeding children isn't really the motivation

Based on my school - who is part of the trial I'm now informed - they will "only" open 5 minutes earlier than they already do since school gates open at 830am half an hour before lessons start anyway. So 825am is when the "free" breakfast club will start

5 minutes isn't going to make a jot of difference for anyone I know who works since they all need before school care from 730am or 8am at the very latest

justanothercrapbedtime · 05/03/2025 15:24

So I know a few schools who are on the trial and I've enquired ....it's all a bit of a con really....school gates open at 830am which is when 99% of parents and current before school clubs/childminders drop off. But school doesn't officially start until 9am....

Schools on the trial are starting the free breakfast club at 825am ...as technically then that's the 30 minutes before lessons start ...

So uptake is going to be zero since it would save parents a whopping 5 minutes 😂

What a con

1SillySossij · 05/03/2025 07:44

LittleHangleton · 23/02/2025 15:26

Breakfast clubs are ususlly staffed by TAs, Kitchen staff, Lunchtime Supervisors, even cleaners. Cleaners in primaries often end up with other jobs. Cleaners are often relief lunchtime supervisors, help in the kitchen, run breakfast club. It's the nature of these low-paid term time only jobs, usually staffed by women.

(The low-paid support staff issue is a different issue, and one that the riotous indignation here would be better aimed at solving. But it is a fact that support staff in schools are poorly paid snd yet are also highly sought-after roles)

The staffing of the breakfast clubs is the least difficult aspect of this to problem solve.

But they still need to be paid yor those hours, so it still needs more money, vor taking them away from another essential job they are doing. They are not sitting around doing nothing!

1SillySossij · 05/03/2025 07:29

Vitriolinsanity · 23/02/2025 18:42

Oh, and we tried the "free bagel" shizzle.

We needed two four slice toasters, three staff, a fucking freezer, and then the same staff to stand out at the gate handing out. And we needed no gluten bagels, no sesame bagels so mmm just a bit of plain bagel.

Then the site team spent half an hour clearing up half chewed bagel from the playground so PE could start.

It's like the same people that think "it looks so easy to own a cafe" have the same approach.

It's going to take a long time to toast bagels for even 100 kids, with 2 x 4slice toasters!!

1SillySossij · 05/03/2025 07:25

ChocolateTruffleAssortment · 23/02/2025 20:41

How is it panning out in Wales then?

My DC secondary school has a breakfast club with free food for all. It’s run by Y10/Y11 prefects who liase with the catering staff about stock etc. it’s always seemed quite popular when my DC has talked about it.

Show quote history

But ( assuming you can even get 14 to 16vyear olds in for an hour or so before school to set up and serve breakfast), you still need people clear it all away/ wash up etc. Who is going to do that because the school day will have started? I would imagine that staff need yo be supervising the breakfast club for insurance purposes?

1SillySossij · 05/03/2025 07:09

You understand the initiative is about enabling parents to start work eatlier which will make more jobs open up to them and get them off benefits.
Feeding children isn't really the motivation

Blushingm · 27/02/2025 13:22

Each local authority have different costings - it’s not a blanket funding

they offer so far free cereal, milk, bread/toast and fresh fruit

Araminta1003 · 27/02/2025 12:40

Thanks @Blushingm - I see the toothbrushing after breakfast club is optional in Wales. Is it also funded at 60p per child?

Blushingm · 27/02/2025 08:32

www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2018-12/free-breakfast-in-primary-schools-statutory-guidance-for-local-authorities-and-governing-bodies.pdf

This is the scheme in wales

Scrubberdubber · 27/02/2025 08:22

ViciousCurrentBun · 24/02/2025 09:13

Labour are especially bad at considering unintended consequences on policies. They have always been heart in the right place and arse and elbow at the same time.

This is also MN which means that’s parents on here are invested in their children. People assume lack of food is because people are struggling for money but some really do not care about their children. Some parents will neglect their children to the point they do not feed them. It happens far more than most care to admit. I have been involved with food projects with initiatives on feeding people and research in to poverty,

Unless you have directly worked with or been involved with issues like this it is hard to fathom just how neglected some children are. Initiatives like this mean children at school are going to get fed. It is the best way to facilitate feeding children. I’m no biologist but it’s pretty obvious the body and brain aren’t coping if it doesn’t food have and some children and adults misbehave if hungry.

Illiteracy in the UK is at 16%, within the prison population it’s at 57%. If people want a better society the push should be about educating at the most basic level.

The problem is this will not have been costed properly and there will yet again be unintended consequences for the already overstretched school staff.

I agree there are more neglectful parents then anyone cares to admit however in my experience the same people who won't get cereal and milk for their kids are not going to wake up half an hour early to get them to an early morning club.
I get being broke I've been homeless before but honestly cereal is 80p in most supermarkets if you don't get Kellogg's I think the number of people who can't get their kids that because they can't afford it is a lot smaller than the number just neglecting their kids.
So from that angle it's pointless.

It will be good for people who need to get to work early though my schools current breakfast club is £7 a morning which adds up. It was only £3 a year ago I stopped using it when they raised the price

EveningReflection · 27/02/2025 06:53

It's sad to hear that in deprived areas the take up can be as low as 10% for a free breakfast club! At the primary school my daughter is going to there are only 80 places (out of 360 at the school) for breakfast club, costing £5 a day. It's massively over subscribed with as many on the waiting list as those who attend. It's an affluent area where almost all children have two working parents. I wonder what will happen when they have to offer it to all parents for free. The take up will be huge, so I question the logistics!

BurntBroccoli · 26/02/2025 16:33

bigvig · 26/02/2025 07:27

I agree OP. It sounds good but hasn't been thought through or funded. It would be better to give that money directly to schools to spend in the way they think best - with the caveat that it can't go on senior leaders pay (which has gone up massively BTW whilst everything else has been cut to the bone)

Especially in Trust schools!

Original poster

Redlocks30 · 26/02/2025 16:20

The sheer cost of childcare in the UK must prevent loads of people working full time or even at all?

Yes, probably, but expecting schools to manage the problem but allocating them insufficient money, really isn't the solution!

OP posts:

bigvig · 26/02/2025 07:27

I agree OP. It sounds good but hasn't been thought through or funded. It would be better to give that money directly to schools to spend in the way they think best - with the caveat that it can't go on senior leaders pay (which has gone up massively BTW whilst everything else has been cut to the bone)

Phineyj · 26/02/2025 07:20

I saw a proposal a while back (not an official proposal, an article in an education magazine) that teachers could get priority in admissions for primary schools in their local area so they could (essentially) pick a school to facilitate childcare drop off in time to get to their own school.

Now considering the government funds the state schools and is constantly dealing with a severe teacher shortage, and that women in their 30s leave teaching at a greater rate than all new entrants into the profession, you'd think that one would be a complete no brainer in terms of policy.

But it isn't policy.

If the government can't even see the connection there with something they actually directly fund, I wouldn't be holding my breath for any other joined up policy thinking!

rickyrickygrimes · 26/02/2025 07:05

Yes it is about people getting to work earlier and supporting that primarily, because the nation is supposedly unproductive.

I’ve never seen the numbers but surely the state provision of childcare and school hours to fit working parents would have a hugely beneficial impact on productivity? The sheer cost of childcare in the UK must prevent loads of people working full time or even at all?

1SillySossij · 25/02/2025 16:55

LittleHangleton · 23/02/2025 15:12

as they do the TA role specifically as it enables them to be with their own children in the mornings.

The school can contract a TA to do whatever they like. If that means starting at 8am, the TAs can be contracted to start at 8am.

With all due respect, TA roles are the easiest to fill (I hire TAs). People fall over themselves for the job. You don't wanna start at 8am then fine - the school won't have a problem finding half a dozen others who will.

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We find it incredibly hard to recruit TAs. They are mostly used as 1 to 1 support for children with very challenging behaviour. No one wants to do this very draining job and often entails being physically and verbally attacked.

BurntBroccoli · 25/02/2025 12:47

Araminta1003 · 25/02/2025 09:41

I think the French system of childcare is good and I think we need more state provision. It would also enable us to identify and support special needs much earlier. Which would be far better for society in the long run. We could really have a good system with NHS and education working well together, if there were the will to sort this out properly. Like vaccination and dental visits in schools from an early age (3 onwards). That would make a difference and help most parents work.

Totally agree that there needs to be more state provision.

Ttcanditsalongroad · 25/02/2025 12:38

I do feel maybe it’s a move towards lengthening the school day and they are hoping this helps

sashh · 25/02/2025 12:30

Longma · 25/02/2025 07:40

I think finding space is red herring, you can have different classes eating at different times

Not really.

The time allocated is not long enough to allow breakfast to be done in shifts. The children will need to come in, get food, eat, clear up and be ready for learning time.

It takes us the best part of an hour to get children through lunch.

I worked at a secondary that had compulsory breakfast for staff and students. In some ways it was a pain because your time slot might be 15 mins in to the first lesson but you didn't have hungry kids.

Araminta1003 · 25/02/2025 11:17

Yes it is about people getting to work earlier and supporting that primarily, because the nation is supposedly unproductive.
The point about SEND - it can be difficult to tell in the early years what are just delays due to parenting and what is genuine SEND. Getting most DCs into a system earlier will help with differentiating between those.
They cannot feed kids for 60p in a healthy way and should focus the food aspect on those with FSM. I think they should consult with schools and let them implement what suits their cohort best. One size fits all never ever works.

rickyrickygrimes · 25/02/2025 10:15

Ah this is about childcare rather than nutrition?

so I’m in France and yes school is totally organised around parents working hours. Nursery starts at 2/3 years old. Completely free in the public sector. The standard school day in my area is 8am to 4:30pm, four days a week. This can be extended to start at 7:30am and finish at 6:00pm with before and after school care. There’s a 2 hour lunch break usually. The long days are very hard going on young children, but at least the option is there for working parents - and especially for mothers who usually bear the brunt of childcare.

Teachers aren’t expected to work outside the official school hours. Instead a team of ‘périscolaire’ staff supervise the children before and after school, and during the lunch break. But it all happens at school. Wednesday is traditionally a day for sports / activities but again children can be signed up for périscolaire activities, also in the school. All the périscolaire activités are charged for, but its means tested (as is everything school related here) and are very cheap compared to the many private providers.

It certainly doesn’t translate into better / earlier identification of special needs, but that’s more a cultural thing - France is notoriously dire at dealing with any kind of SEN.

None of the providers include breakfast, though children can probably bring their own. Ditto for after school, a goûter / snack needs to be supplied by the parents.

Araminta1003 · 25/02/2025 09:41

I think the French system of childcare is good and I think we need more state provision. It would also enable us to identify and support special needs much earlier. Which would be far better for society in the long run. We could really have a good system with NHS and education working well together, if there were the will to sort this out properly. Like vaccination and dental visits in schools from an early age (3 onwards). That would make a difference and help most parents work.