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To not understand why Katharine Birbalsingh is so controversial

341 replies

TemporaryPosition · 22/02/2025 12:34

Just that. Am I being unreasonable in thinking the results she achieves at her school and start in life her students get which they likely otherwise wouldn't - is something to be celebrated and perhaps we should look to what's going wrong in schools which face the the same socioeconomic challenges but get far poorer results. Surely I'm not being unreasonable to wonder this.

OP posts:
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Hollyhedge · 24/02/2025 23:10

ExIssues · 24/02/2025 23:07

Ok so it doesn't limit any choices then. GCSE choices generally don't - as long as the core subjects are followed. Why do people make stuff up.

I have seen quite a few sixth forms state grades needed in 8 or 9 subjects. I also read unis look at grades in context of number of subjects, amongst other things.

ExIssues · 24/02/2025 23:07

Hollyhedge · 24/02/2025 22:44

I don’t think it limits as such. But it is beneficial to do separate if you have able pupils interested in sciences. Apparently better prep for A levels. But I don’t know how this translates to later achievements

Ok so it doesn't limit any choices then. GCSE choices generally don't - as long as the core subjects are followed. Why do people make stuff up.

cooljerk · 24/02/2025 22:53

@exissues

Check whatdotheyknow.com which is the Freedom of Information request website, specifically created for people to equip themselves with facts rather than feelings.

ExIssues · 24/02/2025 22:50

cooljerk · 24/02/2025 18:47

Percentage of white British kids on roll? 1.1%

This stat alone tells you all you need to know.

Do you think 1.1% of the 245 applicants (for 120 available places) were white British?

The 245 applicants (which I agree is surprisingly low) for 120 Year 7 places still means that first-choice applicants are almost exactly double the available places. And this ignores the significant numbers of second- and third-choice applications.

The available places are randomly allocated

Hollyhedge · 24/02/2025 22:44

ExIssues · 24/02/2025 22:38

What choices does it limit if you only do double science? There are no degree courses that require separate sciences (as far as I know)

I don’t think it limits as such. But it is beneficial to do separate if you have able pupils interested in sciences. Apparently better prep for A levels. But I don’t know how this translates to later achievements

ExIssues · 24/02/2025 22:40

cooljerk · 24/02/2025 22:28

@AquaPeer

Are you sure this is true for free schools? That wasn't my understanding but I could be wrong.

The local authority process the admissions but I had a feeling that free schools (because'free') can have the final say.

Their policy is random allocation for those living within 5 miles. This is administered by the LA . So no choosing pupils. Why do people have "feelings" rather than just check the facts which a freely available on the internet?

ExIssues · 24/02/2025 22:38

0ohLarLar · 22/02/2025 14:05

I don't disagree that discipline can be good in schools - most children thrive on order and consistency.

I dislike that she attributes much of the schools "success" to the discipline etc which is not the whole story.

  1. kids at Michaela take an average of only 7 GCSEs, 2 less than most decent state schools. This frees up time to drill core subjects, english & maths but at the expense of breadth, and narrows opportunity for some. So actually the "high" results aren't really the result of the behaviour. Most schools could get those maths & english stats if they cut 2/3 other subjects to give the extra time.

  2. Only 2.6% of michaela pupils do separate sciences at GCSE, a much lower proportion than the national average of just under 25%. This limits pupils choices later on.

  3. the demographic of Michaela parents won't be replicated everywhere. Its a diverse urban area with a high proportion of students from 1st or 2nd generation immigrant families. The culture around education is strong and parents will push their kids to study. You will not get this in a sleepy, typically british dormitory town in wiltshire.

  4. Michaela pushes particular, limited subject choices - for example religion over history & geography. They boost exam stats by having children for whom english is a second language, take a GCSE in their home language (see their gcse entries in persian, arabic, Spanish, chinese & gujurati, which they don't teach). Not a single entry in GCSE music, drama, graphic, technology, textiles etc.

What choices does it limit if you only do double science? There are no degree courses that require separate sciences (as far as I know)

cooljerk · 24/02/2025 22:28

@AquaPeer

Are you sure this is true for free schools? That wasn't my understanding but I could be wrong.

The local authority process the admissions but I had a feeling that free schools (because'free') can have the final say.

cooljerk · 24/02/2025 22:25

@Ubertomusic my experience of teaching in a multi-ethnic urban school is that second-generation students retain the culture and values of their parents to a very great extent. But yes, those children born in London to Lithuanian, Polish, Slovakian parents can identify as white British.

The white working class in Brent is probably waning, as you suggest, and clustered in different parts of the borough - if at all.

tobee · 24/02/2025 22:12

So who came to speak at Michaela to balance Jordan Peterson?

The other thread was not asking about why teachers were leaving teaching. It was asking about what was the worst thing about teaching:-

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amiibeingunreasonable/5280405-teachers-whats-the-worst-thing-about-the-job-now

fwiw

AquaPeer · 24/02/2025 20:37

cooljerk · 24/02/2025 18:22

@AquaPeer

The admissions are through Brent like the state secondary schools in the borough. They simply offer places on allocation criteria and Brent publish all their admissions information on their applications portal

How could she (or any headteacher) select?

By running a 'free school', which as the name suggests is 'free' of the rubric and control of the local education authority (LEA).

This isn’t related whether or not it’s a free school- the local authority, Brent, handle the admissions.

many free schools use local authorities admissions.

once you use local authority admissions you have no say whatsoever in your intake. It’s simply auto allocated on criteria. The headteacher knows nothing about the children offered places at her school

ByGraceAlone · 24/02/2025 20:29

ByGraceAlone · 24/02/2025 20:21

It was creating division in the playground in a school which is explicitly secular.

If you want to pray go to a different school.

Also it was being provoked by a small group of Muslims in the community who threatened teachers and KB with death threats if they didn't allow open praying in the playground.

If she had lost the case the school would have had to close it couldn't have continued as a secular endeavour.

There are apparently more cases coming from this small Muslim community group. They want to intimidate her and close the school. (most Muslim parents are happy with the school.)

It is fascinating who is for and who is against this seemingly successful school...the groups against seem to be lefty middle class Guardian reading JBP hating women and devout Muslim men.
What do they have in common??

TemporaryPosition · 24/02/2025 20:25

Totallymessed · 24/02/2025 19:55

Did anyone actually explain why Jordan Peterson is so terrible? I read the first four pages but "JP is awful" seemed to be stated as an established truth, but no-one explained why.

No. They still haven't

OP posts:
CanOfMangoTango · 24/02/2025 20:24

cardibach · 24/02/2025 20:07

How was it? They weren’t asking for a prayer room, just to be allowed to pray. How would you feel if she told a Christian student they couldn’t pray on school grounds?

It's a secular school. I disagree with KB sometimes but she was dead right on this.

I work in a school where there is a prayer room. Children are bullied if they are not deemed suitably devout by their peers. This is magnified during religious occasions.

I don't blame her for wanting to try and avoid this sort of behaviour and foster friendships across religious and ethnic groups. As far as I can tell, she is quite successful in this area.

ByGraceAlone · 24/02/2025 20:21

cardibach · 24/02/2025 20:07

How was it? They weren’t asking for a prayer room, just to be allowed to pray. How would you feel if she told a Christian student they couldn’t pray on school grounds?

It was creating division in the playground in a school which is explicitly secular.

If you want to pray go to a different school.

stuckdownahole · 24/02/2025 20:19

cardibach · 24/02/2025 20:07

How was it? They weren’t asking for a prayer room, just to be allowed to pray. How would you feel if she told a Christian student they couldn’t pray on school grounds?

I would feel the same if the Christian student was encouraging others to pray in the playground and thus fostering a potential divide between the more and less devout. Which is what was happening, it's just the student in question happened to be Muslim, not Christian.

Ubertomusic · 24/02/2025 20:18

cardibach · 24/02/2025 20:07

How was it? They weren’t asking for a prayer room, just to be allowed to pray. How would you feel if she told a Christian student they couldn’t pray on school grounds?

I'm a practicing Christian and I would feel the same. If you want to pray during the school day, go to a religious school or a school that provides prayer rooms, there should be no problem with that. Encouraging other pupils to pray is proselytism, children go to school to study not to preach to others.

ByGraceAlone · 24/02/2025 20:17

Engage through relationships is a terrible way to teach secondary school subjects.

It's one of the biggest cons in education currently.

The relationship in the classroom is teacher pupil following the explicit rules and expectations for both.

What they do at Michaela which I think is brilliant for relationships is family style eating teachers and pupils every day. That's when you engage through relationships.

Also materials shouldn't need adapting for every class if a clear scheme of work is being followed this should be built in.

cardibach · 24/02/2025 20:11

IdaGlossop · 24/02/2025 19:21

She should be congratulated. Teacher retention would also be improved if classrooms were orderly and they could spend their time doing what they were trained to do.

They can’t at Michaela. I was trained to adapt materials for each class and to try to engage through relationships. Michaela is so prescriptive those things are t possible.

cardibach · 24/02/2025 20:07

stuckdownahole · 24/02/2025 17:43

Michaela seems to use a model of strict behaviour rules that works well for a majority of, but not all, children. It's outside the state system and therefore no child is forced to go there, so there's an element of self-selection with children who can't sit up straight and face the teacher not being enrolled.

I was impressed with Birbalsingh's response to a legal challenge last year from a parent of a child who wanted a prayer room to be provided - the child had been disciplined for praying in the playground and encouraging others to do so. She argued that the school was founded as secular and did not provide any prayer facilities for any religion, and won the case. I think this was really important - if no child is forced to go there, why shouldn't the school be secular? The position of the parent was ludicrous and provocative in my opinion - analogous with demanding a meat dish in a vegan restaurant.

Edited

How was it? They weren’t asking for a prayer room, just to be allowed to pray. How would you feel if she told a Christian student they couldn’t pray on school grounds?

cardibach · 24/02/2025 20:05

waltzingparrot · 24/02/2025 13:40

Interestingly, there's another thread running at the moment asking teachers what they don't like about teaching at the moment. No 1 issue coming out is kids behaviour. There's quite a few ex teachers who cite leaving the profession because of kids appalling behaviour.

KB at Michaela has really got this issue in hand with her strict methods that some are railing at. Surely, she should be congratulated for that at least.

I’m an ex teacher. I don’t know anyone who left because of behaviour. Many recognise it’s getting worse, but that’s not their reason to leave. It’s paperwork, unrealistic expectations and management.

Marylou2 · 24/02/2025 20:04

Ubertomusic · 24/02/2025 20:01

They don't like his diet! 😂

Big JBP fan but the diet definitely questionable 🤔 😅

Parsley1234 · 24/02/2025 20:02

Does anyone know what the teacher retention is like at Michaela ?

Marylou2 · 24/02/2025 20:02

Totallymessed · 24/02/2025 19:55

Did anyone actually explain why Jordan Peterson is so terrible? I read the first four pages but "JP is awful" seemed to be stated as an established truth, but no-one explained why.

I always wonder why he's so frowned upon. He's a respected professor of Clinical Psychology who's put up an incredible defence of children being brainwashed by the trans lobby and multilated by unethical surgeons.

Ubertomusic · 24/02/2025 20:01

Totallymessed · 24/02/2025 19:55

Did anyone actually explain why Jordan Peterson is so terrible? I read the first four pages but "JP is awful" seemed to be stated as an established truth, but no-one explained why.

They don't like his diet! 😂