Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

@WiddlinDiddlin why do you believe that?

No one is putting her in the women's toilets though, it's up to her where she goes.

It's males in women's single sex spaces that risks harm to women. As the TRAs say no one is doing genital inspections.

She is being used to support the erosion of female boundaries. That's not on really.

There is no 'gotcha' - I think there should be a different kind of provision, trans spaces or do away with male/female multi-cubicle toilets entirely and have single user facilities that anyone can use, that does not put anyone in contact with anyone else.

But that is by the by, and isn't what is happening now.

I don't think 'all masculine looking women should avoid using the ladies' however as someone related to a masculine looking woman, I can tell you, they already are as a direct result of being accosted/attacked (yes!) by women who have jumped to conclusions.

@eatfigs "At this point, the general assumption when seeing a hirsute women - like the one in the photo you attached - in a female-only space will be that she's female."

Hahahahaha. Hahaha. No. It really really will not be.

If Michael passes then Michael can use the men's. If a man realises that Michael is actually female and objects then Michael can be asked to leave. But as Michael passes then that won't happen will it? What with all that facial hair and big muscles.

If Michael wants to use the women's space then Michael is entitled to do so as a female person. Michael can expect to be challenged as their appearance has been changed by the use of testosterone, but Michael can explain this.

Or Michael can campaign for, and use, a third space. GC women are generally very supportive of such spaces which can be used by anyone who isn't comfortable using the space designated for their sex.

What isn't acceptable is for Michael to act as a Trojan horse for men who want to get into women's spaces, because lets face it, this is what it's all about. Sad for Michael if they haven't worked out by now that the only time TRAs give a shit about transmen is when they need a useful idiot.

Very well said.

Keep all men out of womens spaces and men can fight their own battles.

When law and policy revert back to the norm of women's spaces being strictly female-only again, there will be a significant deterrent effect upon males who desire to be women even trying to use women's spaces.

If males know they can be investigated and penalized for this disregard of women's boundaries, they'll be much less likely to even try, and as a consequence, there will be much less suspicion overall of there being potential female impersonators trying to sneak into women's spaces.

At this point, the general assumption when seeing a hirsute women - like the one in the photo you attached - in a female-only space will be that she's female.

The solution is not going to be insisting that they use the bathroom for their birth gender is it. That isn't going to work, regardless of what you think about transgender.

So again, as this gotcha has been attempted multiple times and hasn't got any better, what you're saying is that all masculine looking women should avoid using the ladies?

Personally, it's up to men to object to women in their spaces. I don't think they should use them but it's not my issue.

What I'm saying is that actual men, whatever stage they are of their "transition" are not welcome in female spaces.

How tall is she ?

Because many of the transmen are much shorter and slighter than their selfies would imply

Can you not imagine the issues that will arise when women who look like men, pass as men, have facial hair and big muscles, are using womens bathrooms.

I don't disagree that some people will feel uncomfortable at non-passing transwomen, and transwomen who have not had surgery, in female only spaces.

I do think forcing those people into male only spaces puts them at risk.

But putting transmen like the person in this picture, into female only spaces, is also going to cause a problem! You may feel like the person in this image is an outlier, but they are not - transmen tend to 'pass' far far more easily and more often.

The solution is not going to be insisting that they use the bathroom for their birth gender is it. That isn't going to work, regardless of what you think about transgender.

He/she (I don't know which, biologically or gender woo) is probably off on a TRA forum complaining that we're subjecting them to literal violence.

👏

Except in sports, prisons, changing rooms, DV shelters, women's awards (best actress anyone?) if we can't define women we can't protect women's rights, recognise women's achievements or create any single sex spaces.

So in one sentence what is a woman if you think some men are then you are clearly rejecting the adult human female definition so we need new definition. Please let us know what it is.

You do realise that 97% (at least with transwomen) don't have any surgery, right? So they do absolutely nothing but claim they are a woman because.... they feel like it (or, rather, get aroused by dressing as women), @Apennyforapound .

Do you know what, OP? My “lived experience “ as a woman in her 50s adds up to multiple sexual assaults (including rape), kerb crawling, being followed home off public transport, being groped a million fucking times. Guys you think you know turning out to be predatory. Honestly too many to count. And I am a very average person. You mentioned gaslighting, I am so sorry to tell you that it is you who is living in a delusion. Your massive diatribe is both cringe and utter bs.

being gender critical is a badge of honour, it literally means understanding and accepting reality.x
x

Why do you care about being a women or what it means be a woman though??

Spoken like a male supremacist. Any feminist will tell you why it counts to be a woman and what it means to be a woman - a member of the oppressed sex class. You may as well ask Why do you care about being black or what it means be black though??

You realise 'gender' is a misogynistic man-made social construct that isn't tangible and doesn't exist... right? Only sex is real and exists. And female only intimate safe single SEX spaces are based on....SEX. Not a 'gender' in some male's head.

A MALE with a COCK AND NUT SACK in a safe FEMALE ONLY space affects all women and girls, especially rape survivors. Cast aside your brainwashing and science denialism and use critical thinking.

If you were in med school, you'd know a male with a cock and balls is not any type of woman, @H112 .

@H112 'Transwomen' are males with penis and testicles. If you have a cock and balls, how are you a woman? If a male with penis and testicles are in a female only safe single sex space, where many of us women and girls are rape survivors, it affects us.

Its clear you don't actually know what a 'transwoman' is.

Are you sure about that?

What about these ones who, by their own admission, get sexually aroused when wearing clothing intended for women?

Surely getting an erect penis as a consequence of cross-dressing would preclude one from being a woman?

Indeed.

There are so many issues.

And, of course, the lazy 'you can't police it so why bother'.

Without becoming the 'genital inspectors' genderists accuse us of being there is no way to tell if a particular trans identified person has had full 'reassignment' surgery or not so even if people want to make a case for post-op males to access women only spaces it really is unworkable. Even if there was a system in place that somehow allowed post op men in but no others (some sort of fanny operated scanner?) it doesn't prevent women from being 'triggered' by the presence of someone with male biological advantage in an intimate female space. Male voice, male gait, male build may all remain regardless of surgery and can be terrifying to some women. As ever it comes back to why is it OK to traumatise some women so as not to upset a tiny minority of men?

I remember reading that study.

There is an over reliance on people thinking that the risk is about use of the penis and that removing testes will also decrease that 'risk'. But then you have to consider also that male people need to have a certain minimum of testosterone to stay physically healthy long term. And we know that testosterone reduction doesn't reduce the physical advantages that those male people have.

Just their grip strength and punch power remains so much higher and barely skims the maximum grip strength of female people if I remember correctly. Meaning that they can keep holding onto someone whereas a female person has less chance of keeping hold of someone they are attacking. And a female person's punch is not going to have the same power to overpower a victim.

Plus, lots of people like to ignore that particular castration paraphilia that some male people have. I mean, they are trying to normalise that paraphilia along with all the others. To some male people, being castrated is a sexual fetish.

Yes. Also. When a woman calls herself a ‘cisgender woman’, it is clear there are biases afoot.

And also, for those rare transwomen who do have genital surgery, the prostate is rarely removed (as it can lead to incontinence).

Therefore, a transwoman currently with F on their NHS record, may be at significant risk, if their need for prostate examinations and PSA testing is ignored.

As an aside, compare this to the evidence that at least 95% of transmen will end up incontinent after wrong sex hormones (testosterone).