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Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

859 replies

ThisPinkWyvern · 22/02/2025 02:04

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

OP posts:
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NotTerfNorCis · 22/02/2025 08:08

I do wonder what would have happened if the transgender movement hadn't been so aggressive. If there hadn't been a 'cotton ceiling', or a male person telling feminists on the women's march that they weren't allowed to equate woman with female, or balaclava-clad young men trying to shut down feminist meetings with physical force. Or pronoun declarations mandated in workplaces, or school kids being told they might be in the wrong body, or male criminals accused of violent, sexual offences being referred to as women in court and in the press. What if the movement had been gentler and smaller scale... I'm sure in the long term it would have won more people over.

Ilovetowander · 22/02/2025 08:07

It's fact not ideology, you are either male or female. The damage is telling people it is possible to to change.

ladymammalade · 22/02/2025 08:05

I am gender critical. This means I'm a sex realist who knows that trans women are men and trans men are women. I'm not part of any big "movement" that wants to kill them off.

What they feel about themselves in their heads is their business, it doesn't mean I hate them or wish any harm on them. I just refuse to partake in their fantasies about themselves. I've met several, and treated them all with respect and a friendly approach the same as I would anyone else - and I have no reason to use their chosen pronouns in front of them, so it's never caused any issues.

So whilst I agree with Donald Trump on that point, I also think he's a megalomaniac nutter and I disagree with him on most other issues. I also don't think he has women's rights at heart, I think he just used it as a vote winner.

Fimofriend · 22/02/2025 08:04

A post op transgender woman still has a biological male's aggression level, crime level, heigth, strength, and unfounded sense of entitlement. They are NOT women.

I would also like to point to the Trans Widows Escape Committee threads on Mumsnet. By some pure coincidence it is pretty damn obvious that ever single one of their husbands are autogynephilliacs. Why in all blazes of hell should women consent to participate in their immersive roleplay when they (the women) are being included in it without warning and without any consideration for their own preferences?

Rule number one for a kink is that you may only include other people after they have consented.

OneLemonGuide · 22/02/2025 08:04

aspidernamedfluffy · 22/02/2025 07:59

I have no issue with a man wearing a dress, putting on make-up and calling himself Susan...what I do have an issue with is by doing that, he somehow becomes a woman. If he wants to play dress-up that's fine but demanding that I should play along with it to satisfy his ego? nope, not happening. My view is the same towards a woman expecting me to go along with the pretence that she is a man btw.

Agreed. The problem arose when those with narcissistic tendencies gained prominence in the trans movement, and their progressive allies were too “kind” to push back.

Paniconthedancefloor · 22/02/2025 08:03

Oh dear OP. You’ve really come
to the wrong place to spout your misogynistic manifesto. Of course you won’t listen to any of the informed and rational responses you receive because you are so entrenched. A pity, you have a lot to learn.

Velvian · 22/02/2025 08:03

Trans men are definitely female, there is no getting around that.

BreatheAndFocus · 22/02/2025 08:02

Gender identity refers to how an individual experiences their "I". Nobody else but the individual him/ herself has access to a person's "I'. This "I" which we all have is the most fundamental experience of who "I" am. Absolutely nobody else can tell us how we should experience our sense of "I' because it is a subject and falls outside the domain of objective inquiry.
The almost universal criteria used historically to identify the biological sex of an individual at birth is the presence or lack of a penis. Presence of penis = boy, lack of penis =girl. The designation of the sex of an individual on their birth certificate reflects the categorisation of the individual's sex according to this criteria.If the biological sex of an individual cannot be changed then the results of using the same test to determine the sex of the individual at birth would remain unchanged no matter at what point the criteria was applied during an individual's life. If the same criteria is applied to a post op transgender woman her lack of a penis would mean that her biological sex would be determined to be female not male. Since the Gender Critical Movement's ideology declares that sex is binary - there is no spectrum- an individual without a penis and outer female genitals is by default designated female. A post op transgender woman is categorised as female therefore using the same criteria that categorised her as male at birth

This is such scrambled garbage! Firstly, sex is usually identified at birth. The biggest indicator of sex at birth is usually the genitals (only around 0.02% of babies’ sex is ambiguous at first glance and needs further testing to ascertain). However, it’s not just the genitals that make the sex. As an example, the guy years ago who had his penis bit/cut off was still a man afterwards, as is a man who has to have his penis removed due to cancer. Their male sex is encoded in every cell in their body. The fact they’ve lost part of their genitals doesn’t change that. Thus a transwoman who has their penis removed remains a male.

Back to your first point. A person’s sense of “I” is fine but sometimes reality is important. As an example, I in no way feel or look my age. I sometimes knock a few years off. However, if I’m filling in a form to get a new passport, I’m not entitled to put my ‘how I feel” age in, I need to, and do, put my actual age and date of birth. Likewise, I can’t ‘feel older’ than I am and claim my pension. Facts matter.

As to what you said about trans people living in fear, a lot of that fear comes from the very movement that’s supposed to be supporting them. This modern ‘trans’ movement has spread the idea that everyone hates them, and has played on the fears of vulnerable people, particularly the young, who are often dealing with additional trauma. Of course, there are always a few nasty people, but the vast majority of people don’t hate trans people or wish them harm.

The modern ‘trans’ movement has caused a lot of problems for trans people. The trans people I know in the U.K. hate it. They have no wish to impose on others, to live a life of perpetual victimhood, or to deny their sex. The movement speaking in their name is abhorrent to them. Trans people used to be able to live relatively worry-free lives, now these ridiculous demands and the huge proliferation of ‘trans’ youngsters who are nothing of the sort has ruined things for them.

People with sex dysphoria need support. The hangers-on who’ve politicised this and turned it into a Tumblr inspired pile of crap are the ones you should be blaming, not the vast majority of people, both trans and not, who understand that sex is real.

Helleofabore · 22/02/2025 08:02

This is a question for OP and anyone else who supports male inclusion into female single sex spaces if a male person has had surgery:

What exactly is the difference between a male who has had their penis and testicles removed due to injury or disease and a male person who elects to have them removed for their identity?

I am very much looking forward the evidence supported answers to this question. Thanks in advance.

WaryCrow · 22/02/2025 08:01

You think the (increasing) number of attacks on women by men can and should be dismissed?

Typical misogyny.

Zusammengebrochen · 22/02/2025 08:01

aspidernamedfluffy · 22/02/2025 07:59

I have no issue with a man wearing a dress, putting on make-up and calling himself Susan...what I do have an issue with is by doing that, he somehow becomes a woman. If he wants to play dress-up that's fine but demanding that I should play along with it to satisfy his ego? nope, not happening. My view is the same towards a woman expecting me to go along with the pretence that she is a man btw.

I agree with this.

OneLemonGuide · 22/02/2025 08:00

Organising society around the subjective experience of “I” is probably the most batshit way or organising anything since the dawn of human civilisation.

Fully agree. Completely decoupling a sense of self from the reality of the world is literal madness! It means that we have to accept the hallucinations of someone suffering from schizophrenia as being as “real” as the objects I’m seeing with my own eyes.

Also, completely decoupling a sense of self from the reality of the world is the root of evil… It also justifies all manner of crimes… For instance, if “I” feel someone is subhuman because they are Jewish, then who is anyone to object? If only “I” matters, and my subjective experience is satisfied by abusing children, then so who is anyone to criticise?

aspidernamedfluffy · 22/02/2025 07:59

I have no issue with a man wearing a dress, putting on make-up and calling himself Susan...what I do have an issue with is by doing that, he somehow becomes a woman. If he wants to play dress-up that's fine but demanding that I should play along with it to satisfy his ego? nope, not happening. My view is the same towards a woman expecting me to go along with the pretence that she is a man btw.

Daleksatemyshed · 22/02/2025 07:56

@GargoylesofBeelzebub agree with your post completely, time for the TRA to " reframe their trauma"

BiologicalRobot · 22/02/2025 07:55

hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.

I haven't read the whole thread (will go back and read) but can you back this claim up? Hundreds of thousands, really?

NotBadConsidering · 22/02/2025 07:54

Changeissmall · 22/02/2025 07:50

Modern debate for the identity obsessed:

’I identify as X and I demand that all my associated demands are met and my beliefs are not questioned’

’OK cool, You can identify as what you want but you can’t force other people to accept your demands or beliefs’

’YOU WANT US ALL TO DIE I’LL JUST KILL MYSELF THEN AND IT WILL BE ALL YOUR FAULT’

The last 10 years in a nutshell.

It wouldn’t be so bad if we could just eye roll at the tantrum, but that argument has been the basis for the sterilisation of children. Adults have had tantrums, and children have had their breasts removed as a result.

peudhrk · 22/02/2025 07:54

It is having one's lived experience denied that is responsible for the psychological trauma. It is bring gaslighted about the most fundamental aspect of one's being.

A bit like a man telling me he knows what I've been through as a woman, because he "thinks" he's one? You cannot understand for a second what 'trauma' or 'gaslighting is' until you've been the actual victim in this absolute fucking chaos, women are the victims in this, not the grubby and greedy men.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 22/02/2025 07:51

“Deep psychological fear and abject terror”: please switch the news on and see what’s going on in the world. Then learn the difference between it’s and its. Have A Nice Day!

Changeissmall · 22/02/2025 07:50

Modern debate for the identity obsessed:

’I identify as X and I demand that all my associated demands are met and my beliefs are not questioned’

’OK cool, You can identify as what you want but you can’t force other people to accept your demands or beliefs’

’YOU WANT US ALL TO DIE I’LL JUST KILL MYSELF THEN AND IT WILL BE ALL YOUR FAULT’

AlertCat · 22/02/2025 07:48

ThisPinkWyvern · 22/02/2025 03:08

It is having one's lived experience denied that is responsible for the psychological trauma. It is bring gaslighted about the most fundamental aspect of one's being. Everytime the wrong pronoun is used, everytime a gender designation appears on an identity document that conflicts with an individuals innate experience of themself, everytime the individual has to walk into a changing room, public toilet, or hospital ward that conflicts with their innate experience of themself, every time they are referred to by a given name that conflicts with their innate experience of their self, a transgender person is being gaslit and emotionally abused.

Gender identity refers to how an individual experiences their "I". Nobody else but the individual him/ herself has access to a person's "I'. This "I" which we all have is the most fundamental experience of who "I" am. Absolutely nobody else can tell us how we should experience our sense of "I' because it is a subject and falls outside the domain of objective inquiry.

The almost universal criteria used historically to identify the biological sex of an individual at birth is the presence or lack of a penis. Presence of penis = boy, lack of penis =girl. The designation of the sex of an individual on their birth certificate reflects the categorisation of the individual's sex according to this criteria.

If the biological sex of an individual cannot be changed then the results of using the same test to determine the sex of the individual at birth would remain unchanged no matter at what point the criteria was applied during an individual's life. If the same criteria is applied to a post op transgender woman her lack of a penis would mean that her biological sex would be determined to be female not male. Since the Gender Critical Movement's ideology declares that sex is binary - there is no spectrum- an individual without a penis and outer female genitals is by default designated female. A post op transgender woman is categorised as female therefore using the same criteria that categorised her as male at birth.

It is this simple basic logic that was responsible for the term transsexual being coined - so yes, an individual can change their biological sex and a post op transgender woman is therefore a biological woman.

You say, “It is having one's lived experience denied that is responsible for the psychological trauma.”

But when women see a man and are told that’s a woman- even if this person raped them, the most male of all crimes- you are saying that it’s best practice for this woman to have her experience denied? Or even day to day sharing a changing room at work with someone who is trying to inseminate their wife at home, while also claiming to be a woman at work? That’s best practice, for you; but for trans identified people, it’s emotional abuse and gaslighting. Ironically, gaslighting actually means telling a person that their perception of reality is wrong when it’s actually correct, so the individuals doing the gaslighting are the trans people insisting that they’re the opposite sex.

Gender identity refers to how an individual experiences their "I". Nobody else but the individual him/ herself has access to a person's "I'. This "I" which we all have is the most fundamental experience of who "I" am. Absolutely nobody else can tell us how we should experience our sense of "I' because it is a subject and falls outside the domain of objective inquiry.

This bit is true, which is why it’s madness to base legislation on such a subjective thing. Anyone could claim to “be” the opposite sex- even creepy men who just want to ogle women, or be in spaces where women gather. Who on earth would think that was a sensible idea??

individual can change their biological sex and a post op transgender woman is therefore a biological woman.

Don’t be ridiculous. Is Wayne Bobbit a woman now because his Mrs lopped his knackers off?
As well as ridiculous it’s very dangerous in a medical context. Men and women have very different requirements for safe levels of things like nutrients, tolerance to drugs, hormones that indicate healthy liver function, symptoms of heart attack, that sort of thing. We are not like fish which can change sex, or butterflies that used to be a caterpillar. We are mammals and what we’re born as is what we’ll be till we die.

OneLemonGuide · 22/02/2025 07:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 22/02/2025 07:44

Gender identity refers to how an individual experiences their "I". Nobody else but the individual him/ herself has access to a person's "I'. This "I" which we all have is the most fundamental experience of who "I" am. Absolutely nobody else can tell us how we should experience our sense of "I' because it is a subject and falls outside the domain of objective inquiry.

///

I mean c'mon, you are just taking bollocks right now

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 22/02/2025 07:43

If you have the head space to ponder your "innate sense of self" and are paralysed by fear and anxiety because somebody uses a wrong pronoun, then you are privileged beyond belief.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 22/02/2025 07:39

JandamiHash · 22/02/2025 02:14

Also if people are “fearful, traumatised and living in terror” because others won’t pander and play along with their delusions then perhaps some introspection rather than expecting the rest of the world to change, may be a good starting point to deal with this. The second step is cutting the melodramatics. The only people who are allowed to have OTT tantrums when they don’t get their way are toddlers. Not grown adults.

This

Helleofabore · 22/02/2025 07:38

ThisPinkWyvern · 22/02/2025 02:04

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

And the millions of women and children being harmed by treating male people as female people?

Your dismissal of the harms to overall society is remarkable.

I am looking forward thought to the insights your thread will bring.

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