Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

And thats in a still photo. Add in movement and voice and its really easy to tell. You might initially read them as "odd" and it might warrent a second glance to be sure but (baring overt and deleberate aggressive behaviour, drugs etc) you are unlikely to feel threatened because you instinctively pick up the female vibe.

Helleofabore · Today 08:24

While this is going to be a great thread to discuss the actual harms to those female people who have a transgender identity if they are treated as if their philosophical belief that they are male was material reality, I suspect your posts are actually more about leveraging those female people to validate male people with transgender identities.

Damned good post in general, as usual, Helle I think it dovetails with middle aged men insisting that little children are trans and should be fed puberty blockers and other mistreatments. As many have said, they have tried to use that to advance their position that people know and always have, from the earliest age.

Comments about toilets are not 'nonsensical' despite what you think. They really are not and you telling women that they are writing nonsense when they are stating their boundaries.

You have a point about a female who has taken testosterone entering a female single sex space though as there will be some female people confused by their presence. ie. Those female people who cannot read the body cues that remain untouched by testosterone.

What we know from discussing this with female people who have taken testosterone is that they are fully aware that their presence may cause other female people distress. So they, even now, will find alternative solutions for their needs. They go far out of their way to do this and they plan ahead.

While theoretically, those female people taking testosterone should still be welcome to use the female single sex spaces, it may not work for all other female people. There is an acknowledgment that those female people have taken the decision to modify their appearance through testosterone treatments.

If male people had respected the needs of female people from the outset and not forced access for some male people into female single sex spaces, it might have been a different outcome by now for those female people. However, those male people did force access.

The point though is that no laws would be workable to exclude those female people who take testosterone from female single sex spaces. While there can be laws to exclude all male people above the age of needing a female parent or carer to be with them from single sex spaces. One can be legalised, but excluding female people from female single sex spaces is not really a possibility in any case.

You're right. A transman who actually passes will get questioned in women's spaces which is perfectly normal and how it should be for safeguarding purposes. They will have known this when they chose to take testosterone.

However, the majority either do not take drugs or aren't very convincing in the flesh (they tend to make very tiny men since the y chromosome is largely responsible for final male height).

Anyway, up to them. It doesn't mean that we can't have rules that allow access based on sex, just that a tiny minority might have to explain or use third spaces.

I do actually. Agreed they look odd but I wouldn’t be sure.

They would be more welcome than men who think they look like women.
Masculine "butch" presenting women have always existed and societally the wearing of "male" stereotypical clothing by women has been accepted so its nothing really new. Having grown up with female socialisation they are much, much less likely to pose a threat to other women than men (whether wearing a dress or not).
Crime statistics bear this out.

Do you have difficulty correctly sexing the people in this photo? Humans are really good at knowing each others' sex. Every transman I've met (and I've met more than you'd think) was under 5'3 and at most passed as a slight teenage lad. Women don't look like men, and vice versa, except in carefully posted and filtered photos.

So what's stopping you all campaigning for a third gender neutral option? If activists had done that from the outset, there wouldn't be this issue regarding single sex facilities now.

On the contrary you sound confused. I doubt women who look like men would be “welcome” in the women’s toilets or changing rooms despite what people are saying .

How odd. Why would you be bothered about a transman using the toilet when you know anyone could just walk in (because of the lack of bouncers doing genital checks)?

Surely you just assume every space you use is mixed sex because you can't possibly tell by looking?

You sound confused.

I don't really care, I don't want some random man in the bathroom with me, invading spaces made for me and pretending his struggle is mine lol.

Here's an article about how the earth is flat

https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php

So now by posting that have I proved the earth is flat?

Maybe stop spamming propaganda and engage in the discussion.

I don’t really get the obsession with toilets. Anyone can walk into a toilet , it’s not like there are bouncers outside checking everyone’s sex. It’s ridiculous people saying that trans men are welcome to use the women’s toilet. I don’t think I would necessarily know someone was a trans man by looking at them. I’d just be very confused by them being in the toilet.

I don’t agree with trans women using female changing rooms like in the nhs nurse case or participating in women’s sports. But some of the comments about toilets are nonsensical.

If a man loses his penis in an accident does he become a woman? No he doesn't, so stop being so daft.

Women who believe sex is immutable can be from anywhere on the political spectrum. They're not part of a movement, they just believe in science and fact.

Trump has jumped upon multiple political issues which clearly mean nothing to him but can garner him votes. This is just one of them.

So what exactly do you want OP? In all of your wordy diatribe your main goal seems to be to minimise the suffering of women who have been raped by transwomen. Apparently that is less important than the feels of men appropriating womanhood? Are you asking people to agree with you that we should ignore the trampling of women's rights and safety?

Would you feel the same if a white person insisted on identifying as black or an able bodied person disabled?

I don't care how small the number, when a man can sexually assault a child in a Morrison"s bathroom he should never have been in because he says his name is now Katie something is very wrong and to be fair that's only the tip of the iceberg. There's plenty of other cases, including rapes in women's prisons.

I'm a centrist, an absolute centrist and a floating voter. I believe Trump is an absolute cunt, a monster without conscience and very possibly under Putin's control. I also know that people simply cannot change sex and that those who feel they are need support and ththery.the two are not mutually exclusive.

I'm sure plenty of women feel the same.

'Presence of penis = boy, lack of penis =girl'

Good grief, Nursey is that you?

('A boy without a winkle is a girl')

It could be described as political activism even more than marketing.

It’s also totally loopy.

Wouldn't it have been wonderful if it was the Democratic Party supporting all this?

Instead, we ended up with EO from Biden in that first day, week, month that were damaging to female people. And we ended up with a fetishist suitcase stealer advisor, a male military medic who was celebrated as being the first female of that rank and a newly minted 'girl' asked to the White House to meet Biden and celebrated. Oh... and a male who exposed their breasts on the lawn (or did I misremember that one?)

As it is, the EOs that Trump put through really only Federally put the US in the vicinity of where the UK is now. It is not controversial at all what Trump has done. Sadly, Trump will be Trump and the Democratic Party failed to convince voters to re-elect them.

@Rosie8880 what you're posting isn't science, it's marketing.

Please Rosie, stop posting this article that is based in ideological thinking and is not supporting what you seem to think it is supporting.

"when understand that there are not just two biological genders both in humans"

There are only two sexes in humans. And either a gazillion genders as everyone experiences this differently or no genders and we understand that there are a gazillion personalities.

This is not an interesting thought experiment because of the way that extreme activists have leveraged these theories to attempt to support their philosophical belief.

There is no biological basis for a gender identity. And there is only two sexes because the existence of people with differences of sex development do not, in any way, make sex not binary.

Still just two sexes and every person can be categorised with modern medical testing as being either male or female. Please don't use people's differences in sex development in thought experiments about gender.

Thanks for your responses Rosie888! They're neither accurate nor useful, but they are responses.

I genuinely believe that this sort of pseudoscience peaks more lurkers than anything else.

This is nonsense.

FFS

There are no “biological genders”! There exists biological SEX, as a scientific fact, and PERSONALITY which is “gender” for some people. These are NOT the same things.

Stop using the word “intersex” - it doesn’t mean there are more than 2 sexes, and more importantly people with DSDs (Disorders of Sexual Development) DO NOT WANT their conditions to be called “intersex” nor for DSDs to be used in transgender arguments.

I am not sure if you actually read other posts, but they are not agreeing with you in any way, shape or form. What you are writing is nonsensical - please stop and actually consider that even your “evidence” does not support your arguments!

@Rosie8880 Please educate yourself: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10265381/
Intersex does not violate the sex binary.