Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

Except that we always used to. Its called the social contract.
The vast majority of people - male and female accepted and stuck to social norms. Thus the few who didn't stood out. People accepted the boundaries for the good of others.
Some people override the boundaries of others. We are suspicious of theses people.
People, mostly men, who persistently broke the contract e.g in pubs/clubs could be expelled and barred by the owners or management. In public facilities the council monitored and often closed, facilities which attracted such behaviours.

Except - they don’t actually look like men. They look like women who have grown some facial hair and bound/removed their breasts.

We all know that. Just like a 6ft trans woman still looks, is built, walks like a man even if some oestrogen pills have given him tiny breast mounds and he’s wearing a dress. The idea of “passing” is a fantasy for all but a very few who have had extensive surgery (and not much can change height or build).

So what?

What laws and policies require 100% protection to be in place?

You, personally, don't believe it can be 'policed'? Great. It can't be.

But that doesn't make the discussion about what can be done 'nonsensical'.

And that doesn't mean that laws and policies should not be created so that male people can be excluded from these places unless they have a valid reason such as maintenance or entering to assist someone who is ill.

Female single sex spaces that did not require specific admission were never 'policed' in the past. Why the fuck do we need to do it in the future? Instead, what we need is for organisations in the UK to enact the EA2010 exceptions and for male people to respect the policies that exclude them and stay out.

And if they come in, they can be asked to leave legitimately without the threat of a hate crime being reported against them. And if they don't leave, then we can do what we used to do and tell all the female people in the space that a male is there, they can then leave and alert others and alert security and the police.

It is what we did in the past. Why should it be any different in the future if we can get laws and policies in place?

Wow that’s a broad sweeping generalisation.

So how do we tell between a woman who just looks masculine and a "trans man"?

They "look like men" in a photo, but not so much in real life.

Most of them are about 5 foot nothing.

No im not suggesting that. Masculine looking women are different from women who have been taking testosterone and look like men. Are u saying they would be welcomed into a changing room with open arms ?

You've been quite rude yourself @Cornflakes123. Asking you what appearance a "trans man" has was a "stupid question" according to you.

ThisPinkWyvern

Ah yes the pitiful whine of "you are denying my lived experience", by a group of people that have denied the lived experience of men and women (note no BS "cis" there).

This is a problem created by the TRAs and their allies.
If you hadn't tried to deny the rights of other people by putting yourselves first this wouldn't be an issue.

It used to be that transmen were transmen and transwomen were transwomen, but the blowback from your BS is of epic proportions and is of your own making.

BED, MADE, LIE IN IT.

ODFOD.

I have been using women’s toilets for over 40 years in many countries, and I’ve yet to see a single woman being asked if they are a man. For most of the twentieth century women had short hair; and many women have always worn trousers, no makeup, not particularly “feminine” clothes, etc. (visit many other European countries like the Netherlands or Germany, and you’ll see even more women just dressed in a unisex way with short hair all the time). Women pretending to be men are pretty obvious - their build, bone structure, facial features etc. are obvious. Their walk, demeanour, etc. is obvious. Trans men, whatever amount of T they are taking, do not look remotely similar in build or walk or features to actual men. Still photos that give that impression are heavily lit and often doctored but in reality (like with trans women), this illusion isn’t sustained in real life.

This nonsense about “bathroom policing”, and the idea that women descend on other women with short hair and trousers and “challenge” them in the Ladies, is a fantasy entirely generated by terminally-online US teenagers who have very little real-life experience. Just as the transactivists who seem to think having a short hair cut as a woman is “gender non-conforming” (do their eyes automatically screen out any adults over the age of 40 or something?), when in reality nearly every single woman born in the decades between 1920-1970 had short hair (take a look at pretty much any women in the U.K. over the age of 60). I’ve known plenty of women all my life who have short hair, wear trousers and no makeup, and not a single one has ever been mistaken for a man in the ladies’ loo. Trans men look like women with wispy facial hair and a short haircut. Not different to butch lesbian women, or sporty women, or any other women tbh.

i think there is no point of having a discussion when certain people jump down the necks of anyone who queries their opinion on the discussion. And I stand by my points. You can bully me down all you want I don’t really care

Is it your position that masculine looking women should stay out of the ladies? Because that's what you are arguing, @Cornflakes123

I think calling women's discussions on their boundaries about who should access female single sex spaces 'nonsensical' started a discussion that you don't seem prepared for.

And we all just give up.

That’s how the argument goes.

In my opinion we are all going around in circles about it. There is just no way of policing who goes into a toilet unfortunately.

I didn’t say you were. I said you were using a transactivist argument, though you may not have realised it.

I'm interested to understand your point Cornflake, we know that women (and girls) are and have been harmed by males being allowed to enter women's toilets in the name of trans rights.

We know that the presence of male people in women's toilets makes many women uncomfortable, for example SA survivors or women who find themselves in distress in what should be single sex spaces for reasons relating to our biological reality.

It may not worry you if males are in women's toilets but you don't get to dismiss the impact on women or to consent on behalf of those of us who don't consent.

The existence of male presenting female people adds nothing to your argument. The problems that these women may now face is 100% the result of trans activism. They should not be being used as an excuse to let males in.

So you may not think you are an activist for trans or males rights but the argument you are presenting IS an activist argument.

All males out will solve everything. Social contract restored.

Then your statement doesn't apply, does it? @Cornflakes123

"However I still don’t think trans men would be welcomed into the women’s toilet"

And moreover, no woman who looks sufficiently masculine, beyond some undefinable point, should expect to use the female toilet. Is that really your position?

My point about locking the house is not irrelevant at all.

It is pointing out that taking all the precautions possible will still not prevent harm 100% of the time. Hence, all that we can do is campaign for the laws to exclude male people, and accept that some female people who have taken testosterone, as a choice, may end up choosing to use alternative solutions.

It is you who keeps doubling down about female people who have taken the decision to present as a male person entering into female single sex spaces. At this point, you should be able to articulate what the relevance is to your point.

In fact, it shows exactly the difficult situation female people face thanks to extreme transgender activism. That some could be harmed by feeling they have to self-exclude because of the decisions that they have made.

Obviously trans men who look like women wouldn’t be an issue. Obviously.

Also, it's a stupid question in response to your silly argument.

I'm making the point that a "trans man" often is just obviously a woman.

What does anyone look like ? What a stupid question.