Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

What is harmful to transmen is taking testosterone. In my opinion that would cause them far more harm than me saying that they are a woman

@Helleofabore i wasn’t censuring anyone either. I agree with most of your points to be honest. I just don’t feel as passionate about toilets and they are always used as an example.

There are some transmen who pass extremely well (e.g. Buck Angel, Jamie Raines- there's no way I'd be able to accurately sex them if I didn't know they were female) and I do feel they should use men's toilets, etc, to avoid causing alarm to women in single-sex spaces. They are no threat to biological men, so there's no issue with them sharing spaces with them, unlike transwomen and biological women.

To be fair @Cornflakes123 you said the post about not locking your house was irrelevant and a few posters have agreed that it is not irrelevant but you haven't responded to that.

I wasn’t censuring you! I was asking you questions and pointing out where I thought your points didn’t work. Because as I said and you also said, this is a discussion board.

"lived experience" doesn't mean real or moral and doesn't come with any irrevocable rights.

Consider that it's not the first time in the US.

The "lived experience" of many who owned black slaves was brutally denied when they were given their freedom by people who had no consideration for the feelings of those who had grown up knowing that slave owning was their god given right.

@Helleofabore maybe you should take your own advice and stop censuring others lol. 😝

@Helleofabore you have just used your own argument against yourself. Seriously . It’s ridiculous

Perhaps this is projection from you then, “You are incredibly sensitive. And imagining I said things I didn’t say”.

This is a discussion board. I’m entitled to express my opinion. That’s the whole point of a discussion. Anyone who disagrees with anything you say is immediately jumped upon and told they are wrong.

Great. You have your own boundaries. They are yours and yours alone.

Perhaps you should hold off censuring others for having higher boundaries than you.

Did u read my last comment ? I’ve explained thoroughly what I mean. I’m not wasting anymore energy talking about toilets now. Thanks.

It is having one's lived experience denied that is responsible for the psychological trauma.

I do not deny anyone’s lived experience, I disagree in the interpretation of it. Our experiences are made up of feelings, emotions, perceptions. I believe, accept, am actively interested in someone’s experience of feeling uncomfortable with their own body, uncomfortable with social expectations, desiring to be part of a particular group, or whatever other actual feelings occur. I disagree with the conclusion that those feelings must be explained by way of a gendered soul, and that that internal gender undoes or overrules the reality of the observable, biological sex of the body.

A religious person may experience feelings of peace and strength when a pastor prays for them and interpret it as coming from god. As a non religious person I believe their feelings but disagree on the interpretation. Someone else might say that because they have previously driven while drunk and had no accident therefore it’s not dangerous to drink drive. I accept their experience, I believe that trip did actually happen, but disagree with the conclusion they’ve drawn. They were lucky that time but the chances of an accident are increased by alcohol. A friend might talk about their partner as the best, most attractive person in the world. I respect the love and attachment that leads to those words but I don’t agree with their literal truth.

Much like I wouldn’t usually argue over religious beliefs or whether my friends partner is the literally most attractive man in the world, I also wouldn’t usually object to a woman saying “I am a man”. But in any of those cases, if their belief is affecting laws, or if I am being compelled to actively agree with their interpretation, I will stand up for my own beliefs and my own rights. There is no violence here. There is no denial of the person’s experience, only a refusal to be forced to affirm a particular interpretation of that experience.

I have no interest in harming anyone but I will not apologise for believing something sensible.

your tone is bullying and your comments about me are sarky.

I, and others, have asked you repeatedly what you did mean. And what you thought was nonsense. You haven’t been able to do more than kept repeating broad statements.

Then you make vague statements about bullying and now say I am too sensitive?

I didn’t say it is all nonsense. You are incredibly sensitive. And imagining I said things I didn’t say

You seem to have drunk all the kool-aid OP.

Hurty feelings and big word salads do not stand up against facts and science. If millions of Americans need psychological help because they think they're born in the wrong body that is not the fault of the well informed, clever women of mumsnet and elsewhere who hold firm boundaries and refuse to stand aside to allow their spaces and sports to be invaded, or their kids to be brainwashed.

OP. I don't care.

I was in Athens the other day and went to the National Archaeological Museum. There were 2 ancient skeletons they had found surrounded by offerings in their grave. Clearly stated they were both men. Not just about genitals, not just about hair, not just about chromosomes. Every single cell of a person's body is sex coded and this cannot be changed.

I think things like men (trans women) using women’s changing rooms at work can and should be policed. Very difficult to stop anyone walking into a toilet regardless of whether they are a man , a trans man, a masculine woman or whatever else. It’s not something I feel passionately about. I do feel passionately that trans women should not be allowed compete in women’s sport, go to women’s prisons etc.

When I was a young woman, I was often momentarily mistaken for a teenage boy because of my then appearance and occupation. In fact, when I met my ex, he thought I was a boy (and threatened to deck me for laughing at him).
My DD, much taller than me, well built and athletic, has also been mistaken for a male, momentarily. As soon as she moves or speaks, it’s evident that she’s female.

The number of women looking male enough to be mistaken for a man for more than a few seconds is likely to be vanishingly rare, as is the number of feminine looking men who could genuinely be mistaken for a woman. But they are trotted out ad nauseam as being unfairly picked on in toilets en masse.

No no! Keating... apparently mentioning how no laws and measures taken will be 100% effective in preventing harm is irrelevant.

You can stand by your points all you want. This is a free society and it is a public space.

You have every right to state that it is all nonsense. And if you wish you can articulate why you believe this and expect to be challenged as we all expect to be challenged on whatever we post.

And we all have just as much right to call your statements in general nonsense if people are not personally attacking you. This is called discussion on a moderated internet forum.

It can't be policed with 100% efficacy, but it can be policed and women will be safer because of it.

Just as your house cannot be protected from burglary with 100% efficacy, but that doesn't mean you don't do what you can to increase its safety.

Who is bullying you?

People are asking you to articulate your opinion based on your statement that we are discussing nonsense.