Rejected by old boss - argh!

I'm afraid it's a really presumptuous error to think the job is yours just because you know him.
So many people make this mistake.

He will only be thinking of himself and how his PA reflects on him.
Often people move on and upwards and want to project a new image without reference to old jobs and in jokes etc

I'm wary of taking on the role as "work wife" , confidante and friend to men in the workplace as these cosy chats rarely translate to having my best interests at heart

Absolutely this
Work is work and I never let work and my personal life cross over.

Assuming this is private sector where despite whatever fair processes a corporate has put in place there is also quite a bit of flex in hiring decisions.
Your ex boss has probably thought strategically about how he needs this role to operate and you may not be the best fit for that, however you worked together previously.

Or it could be that the exec you are currently working for has made it clear they don’t want you poached and for political reasons your boss is respecting that.

Or maybe he’s seen a D&I challenge in the makeup of the PAs and has hired a man. This is something I am still waiting to see happen even once in my ftse 100 corporate! I’m sure there must be some but I never encountered anyone not female.

You can ask for feedback but I’d strongly suspect you’re going to get you were very good but someone else was stronger, displayed capability to do x better etc and still be left feeling short changed and like you don’t have full insight into his thinking.

Look, he hasn't rejected you personally.
This is work.
This is why work/friendship relationships do not work.
Find another job, get some life experience.
Be grown up and continue your friendship outside of work and do not discuss the interviewxwith him. His ambivilence towards you applying was a big sign that you shouldn't - he isn't allowed to tell you not to apply, and obviously thought that you' would work out that business and pleasure don't work, therefore not apply.

There could be all sorts of reasons why you didn’t get the job.

But just wanted to say that I do actually think you’ve been treated quite badly, in terms of the way your rejection was handled, as an internal candidate and especially one who is already well known to him. I’m an HR Manager and I would be horrified if I heard of anyone doing this. The better approach would be, in my view, for him personally to email you and say something like “I’m sorry to have to let you know that you were unsuccessful in applying for the role. Would you like to meet next week and I can give you some feedback?” The reason for meeting “next week” is that you have had time to get over your initial shock and upset. You could just decline to meet, if you wish.

And to be honest, there might not be much feedback to be had. But it’s more about keeping the relationship intact and treating you as if you are a valued member of staff.

Even when the candidate isn’t already known, my expectation would be that hiring managers decline those who have been interviewed themselves. The generic HR email is only for those who weren’t interviewed (or possibly to close the loop for someone who was interviewed, after they’ve already had a personal email or phone call).

Ask hr for feedback rather than putting him in an embarrassing situation.
Are you new to working/young?

Well obviously there was a better candidate.
No-one is obliged to give a person a job, particularly if they have a social, out-of-work relationship. You've been presumptios, @Greengreengrassblueblueskies .
Also why would you want to report to a 'friend'? There will comexa day when he needs something doing NOW, may be curt with you, then you're wondering why 'my friend shouted at me at work', etc, etc...
So a lesson to learn. You shouldn't expect favour. After all, if you'd applied for a job, didn't get it and found out it went to the person's 'friend', you'd likely be down to HR screaming "unfair"...

If he's worthy of continuing to be your friend, he will explain himself to you rather than let an icy communication from HR do the talking. I think it's quite likely that he's decided the more informal relationship he enjoys with you now would be difficult to transfer back into the workplace. This seems more likely to me than him thinking you are intrinsically not up to it.

Besides which, are you sure he doesn't actually find you attractive? I can see what has happened stemming from this. I won't say you're too hot for the spot but maybe he likes being friendly in the way you are now and does not want to return to office formality.

Not necessarily. I was in a similar situation once and didn’t rehire the ex colleague even though we knew them, liked them, knew they could do the job standing on their head. But at interview another person blew us away. It was a hard decision. But the new person was very good when they started so our gut feeling to take the risk on an unknown was right. Being rejected doesn’t necessarily mean he thought you were bad previously, just that maybe there was someone else who was slightly better.

OP got the email from HR at 5PM yesterday. There hasn't been any "in passing" and she says they normally catch up about once a week.

The hiring manager didn't discuss the decision or how she'd done with OP between the interview and a decision being communicated because that's an entirely unprofessional thing for a hiring manager to do with a candidate and likely a violation of company policy.

And if OP expects the manager to reach out on a Friday night to console her over not getting a job or to apologize for doing his job?) then she's passed the point of being able to see him as a boss and it's not in anyone's interest for her to work directly with him again.

Sadly they aren't allowed to factor this in. I work in the NHS and my colleague was on a temporary contract. A new higher banded role was advertised in the service, my colleague applied but didn't get it (despite being perfect for the role and already in the service) as someone else scored higher in their interview answers. My colleague gave shorter answers as by her own admission she 100% assumed she would get it so felt the interview was just a formality. Our boss felt terrible about it all but said that you literally have the scoring matrix in front of you and can only give scores based on the answer they give, not any knowledge you have as an interviewer about the person.

I suspect in your case OP either someone else gave better answers on the day, or as others have suggested the dynamic in your relationship with him has changed to a point where he would feel uncomfortable being in a position of power again (especially if as you say, you're now more friends).

You do need to ask him, you will not be able to 'move on' until you do. But, just thinking about it, the fact he hasn't even had the decency to mention it to you, even in passing to apologise that he went with someone else, doesn't say much about him. That it hasn't even occurred to him, is bewildering. You obviously value the friendship far more than he does.

I've worked with people in the past I loved working with. Some of them were 'under' me. However, I've moved on and so have they. A few I remain friends with. I would find working with them again...weird? Particularly if I am now good friends with them. I wouldn't like the dynamic and would likely hire someone else too.
It won't have anything to do with your skills or interview. He probably just doesn't want to go back to the past, as is his right.

Sorry OP, that sounds tough to deal with and I’d feel similarly to you I think.

Keep your powder dry. I agree with the pp who said not to request feedback directly from him and to let him take the next move now. You may not hear any more about it (ime men can be good at trying to gloss over these things and completely ignoring them). Be bright and breezy but not at all proactive in any (non-work related) conversation.

Don’t say better. Not to him or yourself. Say “more suited to this role”.

OP I’ve worked as a PA in the past and it can be a very intimate (albeit professional) relationship that you form with someone that over time you begin to think of yourself as an extension of that person rather than a separate entity who is helping them with a business need. The job often requires you to know someone inside out and how many people in our lives do we know inside out? I understand therefore why this rejection must feel doubly crushing.

He’s properly able to be friends with you now that you are no longer working for him and knowing him so intimately. To go back to that intimate professional relationship where you are managing his time and having access to all of his private emails, making decisions on his time etc. would properly feel like the waters are too muddied now that you’ve become friends outside of this.

Looks like the previous poster and I both misunderstood due to a typo in the post we were responding to (your friend versus you're friend, makes a big difference).

I still think that any request for feedback needs to be done using whatever the normal channels/processes would be and not rely on the friendship.

In most corporate companies these days interviews are scored. So you may get 1-3 points for each question depending on your structure and content. It may actually not even be that person's decision, no matter how much they like you. You can't factor in things that were not said in the interview, or personal favouritism.

Also for a senior manager hiring a friend is not a good look, unless the friend is head and shoulders and then some above any other candidates. Especially if it's a male-female situation.

Personally I would stay away from hiring a friend into my team as far as I possibly could. Managing someone you have a personal relationship with is a minefield.

God Golly - this isn't grade school where you ask your friend to ask a boy if he likes you. That is an awful and completely unprofessional suggestion. If he didn't give her the job because he thinks that she (the OP) has made things too personal, having her friends ask him would totally prove him right.

He hasn't rejected you, he has just selected a more suitable candidate. I'm going through a similar situation atm where where someone I have mentored and supported in the past has applied for a position, but the role has a lot of applicants. While I'd be happy to have them, there are better qualified/suitable candidates.

In this instance although I expect to reject this candidate, I'd be happy to provide feedback and work with them in the future. Send something like this:

Dear xxxx,

Thank you for considering me for the role of xxxxx. I'm a little disappointed that I didn't get the role, but keen to understand where I can improve should a similar role come up in the future. Would it therefore be possible for you to provide some feedback about my application and interview?

Best wishes

Gosh. This is so hard for you

I'll tell you what I think

I think he said you could apply because he didn't know how to say 'don't apply'

But you're just too close, too friendly with him, and know too much and he actually didn't want you to have the job

Also - I think you were so sure that you were going to get the job, that you didn't give your best interview anyway

I can remember being asked TWICE (!) to apply for a role, years ago, and I was so sure I'd get it, I did zero prep. I didn't get the job 🙄

I'm sorry you didn't get the position and are feeling so low. Being told you didn't get a role you wanted never feels good. But it doesn't sound like this person did anything wrong, and I don't think you have any reason to think it was a rejection of you or your work. Most likely there was either another candidate who better fit exactly what he needed in this role or he had concerns about your friendship potentially causing issues with the manager-report role.

And I think if he was worried about the friendship causing problems I think he probably had a point. Managing someone means you need to be prepared to critique them, turn down pay rise requests, be impartial when others have complaints or conflict with them, and sometimes even reassign or dismiss them. Based on your reaction to this interview rejection it seems likely that your friendship would make that difficult. This clearly feels very personal to you - you're thinking about what it means for your friendship and whether he doesn't actually like you and you're upset that he didn't personally tell you (I doubt that's standard for unsuccessful interviews in your company and it certainly would have been appropriate for him to discuss the interview when you last spoke).

I've had to turn down mentees, colleagues and friends for positions and had direct reports I truly liked layed off and it's awful for everyone. I've learned that the least bad approach is to allow a few days for them to work through the immediate feelings and collect themselves before I even consider reaching out to have any more personal conversation. Take the weekend to vent to close friends and wallow a bit then when you feel ready you can call him, tell him you're disappointed but appreciate being considered, and then put on a great show of moving on. It would be a shame to lose the friendship and he may still be happy to put in a positive word for you for other internal positions.

Why would OPs friends ask him? OP can ask themselves

Please take some time to get some distance (physically, emotionally and mentally) and dignity. Do not message him.

How often does he contact you vs you contacting him? Did he say he loved working with you before or after you said you loved working with him?

You see him as a friend, I am sorry to say he doesn't sound like he sees you any more than a friendly associate.

It hurts, I get that but it's time for you to move on.

I really think you need to ask him why. Do it over text, so you down break down on the phone. You need closure for that interview.

OP, I have also been in your old boss’s position many times, and been on hiring committees where my friends/colleagues/people I supervised were candidates (all disclosed to HR).

Jobs varied between working directly for/with me, or on my team, or with me as an independent and the job for another team. Each case was difficult, but I was required to - and did - put my personal relationship to one side and judge the person and the fit for the job. I always expected/hoped that the person knew I would be doing this, and whatever private disappointment they might feel, would understand it was professional and keep it professional.

Like the other poster, some rejected candidates impressed me with their professionalism in the face of disappointment, and their redoubling down of efforts. This all helped them next time. Other friends/candidates disappointed me by making it personal. For most of them, that behaviour reaffirmed to me that my decision was correct.

The comments in your posts about “ruining us”, wanting to message him outside work lines for feedback and crying if he called you to say you didn’t have the job etc all make me think the lines between professional and friendship have blurred too much. I would not want to hire someone who might cry if I have to reject their leave or couldn’t respect working time boundaries. When I did work closely with friends, they always knew business decisions would come first.

I appreciate you haven’t done these things, just thinking of them, but that you did think them does show the relationship has evolved to one where you are too comfortable as friends. Whatever his motivation in not choosing you, perhaps you could see it as a positive thing, that had you gotten the job, it may have been the end of your friendship anyway, in a potentially messy and difficult way over an issue where you thought he should understand or ‘factor in’ that you are friends, but he needed a PA, not a friend at that time.

If I were you, I would grieve in private. Don’t ask for feedback from him or HR - as you say, you won’t get the truth from him and it would be awkward. Then, if you can, contact him as normal, head held high and onwards. Don’t mention the job or interview at all. Think of it like seeing an ex-boyfriend after a break up. Be your normal positive, efficient self. Make him see your behaviour as professional and positive after this. It may get you a job from him in future, or it may mean he is a positive reference for a different job for you in future. Or it may come to nothing. But professionally you will look good, and I think that’s important.

As to the friendship - after your initial contact as normal, play it by ear. You may want to cool it off, you may want to continue, embracing the fact you are only friends now. No need to decide that now.