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Original poster

Nurseries cannot charge extra to access free hours: updated guidance

185 replies

MidnightPatrol · 21/02/2025 14:59

The DfE has updated their guidance to say while nurseries may ask for voluntary contributions towards nappies, food etc - they may not have mandatory top up fees to access free hours. Councils will have the power to fine providers who are asking parents to pay extra.

news.sky.com/story/amp/parents-must-not-pay-mandatory-extra-charges-to-access-free-childcare-government-says-13313166

This is surely only going to reduce access to free hours for the majority, and push up costs for those paying for unfunded hours? And quite possibly, lead to nurseries closing.

Other consequences which we are already seeing:

  • Minimum attendance to access free hours (4 days for the 30 hours or 3 days for 15). I am not clear if this would be banned under the guidance.
  • Nurseries not offering the free hours
  • Unfunded hours becoming more expensive to offset

YABU - nurseries should not be able to charge extra
YANBU - nurseries need to be able to cover their costs

Given the funding is not enough to provide places, what exactly do the government expect the nurseries to do?

OP posts:
weareladyparts · 21/02/2025 21:36

safetyfreak · 21/02/2025 21:00

My nursery charge an extra £2 per funded hour, so this would not be allowed now?

They are putting up their fees, its greedy as they are a full nursery.

It's not been allowed since the last Labour government but it's not been policed.

Laruca · 21/02/2025 21:27

My childminder (in London) charges £11/h, but she gets £12.28/h from the funded hours (under 2). I only need to pay for any hours additional to the funded hours. It is a big saving for us

BobbyBiscuits · 21/02/2025 21:17

They will just withdraw the offer of the funded hours.

It's almost like what they do with NHS dentists, the government will pay but make it deeply unappealing and not profitable, so they just withdraw the service and solely offer private.

Nurseries are profit seeking businesses and many will not be able to operate that model if this happens.

JoyousEagle · 21/02/2025 21:14

safetyfreak · 21/02/2025 21:00

My nursery charge an extra £2 per funded hour, so this would not be allowed now?

They are putting up their fees, its greedy as they are a full nursery.

This was never allowed. It sounds like it's going to be more enforced now, as top up fees seem to be very common from what I've seen on MN

Loupyloula98765 · 21/02/2025 21:12

My DS nursery receive £78.40 in funding for a 10 hour day, then charge us £10 on top. We send our own nappies and wipes, the additional charge is for food.

On a non funded day we only pay £53.

So on days he has funded hours they receive £35 more for providing the same care.

jannier · 21/02/2025 21:02

surreygirl1987 · 21/02/2025 19:42

Hmmm. My son's old nursery owner was absolutely raking it in, then pleading poverty re why parents had to pay huge top up fees. She was a millionaire from the profits though. I can't say that's happening at all nurseries, but it was a gold mine for her. The money was going somewhere...

How long ago was this?

jannier · 21/02/2025 21:00

FrannyScraps · 21/02/2025 20:56

You must have a very disorganised LA.

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The council have to meet and set budgets every April if schools need more they get the first cut. Then settings with SEN it seems pretty common.

safetyfreak · 21/02/2025 21:00

My nursery charge an extra £2 per funded hour, so this would not be allowed now?

They are putting up their fees, its greedy as they are a full nursery.

FrannyScraps · 21/02/2025 20:56

jannier · 21/02/2025 20:54

The published rates are not necessarily what is paid to a setting take off la admin and funding formula. In April rates are set again so I will work 3 weeks before being told what they will pay ....and we will be paid 3 weeks late so incur debts have to borrow money to live etc....i won't pay my council tax until they pay me out of principal. It happens every year.

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You must have a very disorganised LA.

UnbeatenMum · 21/02/2025 20:55

My son's preschool were able to offer 15 hours with no top up fees but only because they only pay a token rent to the church which owns the hall they use. Then parents provide snacks, lunches, nappies, wipes etc. I just don't think it's going to be affordable for businesses who have higher premises costs.

YouveGotAFastCar · 21/02/2025 20:55

We currently have to pay £3.50 per funded hour. They’ve already announced a price rise in April - I dread to think what it’ll go up to now. He only goes two days a week so we’re already only able to claim 12 hours instead of 30…

jannier · 21/02/2025 20:54

LuckysDadsHat · 21/02/2025 20:49

I have just looked and Lancashire pay 5.41 for 3 year olds. It does seem high as locally it is a lot lower than that although higher than I quoted earlier as I haven't looked for a long time.

On the south coast they get 5.10 for 3 year olds, so I am surprised that Lancashire gets a lot higher funding per hour as it is a lot cheaper place to live.

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The published rates are not necessarily what is paid to a setting take off la admin and funding formula. In April rates are set again so I will work 3 weeks before being told what they will pay ....and we will be paid 3 weeks late so incur debts have to borrow money to live etc....i won't pay my council tax until they pay me out of principal. It happens every year.

jannier · 21/02/2025 20:50

Sunnysideup4eva · 21/02/2025 19:14

No it was £5.62 per hour for 3 and 4 year olds (where the ratio is usually 8 children per adult, so pretty sure £40+ per hour should cover the staffing etc!! And £7.95 for 2 Yr old funding per child per hour. Childcare providers love to tell everyone the money is nothing, it's not.

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The published rates are the average that the government pay the LA per child who then take some as administration costs then apply a funding formula to give sen settings more, pay pensions to state settings etc the rest is then shared out. In my area even childminders rates vary

LuckysDadsHat · 21/02/2025 20:49

jannier · 21/02/2025 20:18

How does Lancashire get so much more than London given the discrepancy in property prices?

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I have just looked and Lancashire pay 5.41 for 3 year olds. It does seem high as locally it is a lot lower than that although higher than I quoted earlier as I haven't looked for a long time.

On the south coast they get 5.10 for 3 year olds, so I am surprised that Lancashire gets a lot higher funding per hour as it is a lot cheaper place to live.

jannier · 21/02/2025 20:46

MsCactus · 21/02/2025 18:53

My childminder just subtracts the total funding amount she gets for us from our bill, so I know exactly what the council give her per hour.

It's about £12 per hour for under 2s (more than her hourly rate) and about £6 per hour for older kids.

Imo nurseries are just greedy. The funded hours significantly reduce our childcare bill, even on the lower rate

The rate reflects nursery ratios which are higher for babies than 3 year olds.
Your childminder is not supposed to do it this way she's supposed to bill you for hours over the funded. Will you be happy when she starts charging you for funded hours as your child gets older?
Hopefully she will be audited and her error sorted out.

jannier · 21/02/2025 20:42

Antsinmypantsneedtodance · 21/02/2025 17:45

I'm confused.

So our nursery has a minimum number of days you can attend as part of the contract (3) and have a monthly charge above funded hours to cover unfunded hours and extras. It works out as £60 a day with funding.

It's quoted in the invoice as

"Consumables / Sustainability charge for funded hours, Universal 570 pa / 12 mths, Extended 1140 pa / 12 mths. Includes but not limited to food, snacks, drinks, nappies, nappy creams, sun cream, use of waterproofs, sun hats plus activities such as teacher led sessions, campfires, etc."

Are they saying they can't do this? And as far as i know is not optional at all.

It's supposed to be optional and only for things not required for the EYFS they should not stipulate additional hours either. This is the reasoning behind the latest update nurseries not following what has always been the rules. Unfortunately funding doesn't cover the actual costs so nurseries are forced to bend the rules.

jannier · 21/02/2025 20:38

LuckysDadsHat · 21/02/2025 16:47

Childminders are only exempt from publishing the extras they charge for on the LA site is how i read the guidance.

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We are waiting for more guidance from Pacey. At the moment if right it's going to cause even more shortages

ERthree · 21/02/2025 20:21

I think parents forget that every sheet of paper a child draws on has to be paid for, as does every crayon, pinch of glitter, every pot of paint, every lump of play dough, every bag of sand etc are all consumables that have to be replaced constantly. Toys, books, puzzles etc need replacing often. Every cup, plate and spoon will be replaced at some point along with a thousand and one other bits and pieces that are need in a nursery. These things have to be paid for and the fee's have to buy them. The staff need a living wage although some parents think they do the job for the love of it. Insurance is not cheap, food is expensive and the list goes on. Some parents spend more on coffee a day than what the Government pay the nursery for "free" hours.

jannier · 21/02/2025 20:18

JLou08 · 21/02/2025 16:34

Lancashire. The nursery gets 5.88 per hour for a 3 year old, a full day uses 10 of the free hours. Ratio of 1:8 for a level 3 practitioner, higher ratio if it is level 5 practitioner.
So 8 children equates to £47 per hour x 10 hours =£470 per day for 1 level 3 qualified. If you paid £15 per hour to the staff, which is actually pretty high for a level 3 childcare practitioner, there is still £320 per day left just for that group of 8 children to cover meals, running costs, managementwage/profit, meal, facilities. The nursery has about 50 children in total, some under 3s which they receive higher funding rates for so they will be getting that extra £320 per day a few times over. They also receive extra funding for children on SEN register and pupil premium for low income families.

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How does Lancashire get so much more than London given the discrepancy in property prices?

POTC · 21/02/2025 20:07

FrannyScraps · 21/02/2025 20:01

But that's because the government have dictated how much they will pay for the funded hours. How else so they bridge the gap? You're right it doesnt cost that for nappies etc but where else can they get income from?

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I wasn't responding to anything about the funding amounts. I was responding to someone saying it was surely reasonable to have to pay for nappies if your child is using them.
I worked for a preschool, they closed because the funding wasn't enough.
I know families who are unable to send their child to preschool before they start school because they don't have the disposable income to cover the top up fees that are not optional at all the local ones.
I get it from both sides so am not getting into that debate, just correcting someone who clearly wasn't aware of what the money being requested is actually for.

MaeveAB · 21/02/2025 20:06

Whoarethoseguys · 21/02/2025 16:26

It has always been the policy that nurseries should only charge for extras and they had to be voluntary. The guidance is only making that clearer because some nurseries were making parents pay the extra
The policy hasn't changed

Yep, I agree. This is not new but included under the conservative government who were notorious for promising the world to parents without funding their promises.

JimHalpertsWife · 21/02/2025 20:04

I also (and have said this before) think large employers of 1000 staff+ should legally have to fund a nursery/daycare close to their offices payable as a work benefit before taxes.

JimHalpertsWife · 21/02/2025 20:03

Surely the easier way to do it is to set an "affordable rates" mandate to all nurseries, so prices can only rise in line with inflation,

Then, allow parents who access and pay for childcare to claim direct from Govt for a benefit to offset this.

But ultimately, parents pay to the nurseries according to their costs (monitored and regulated) and claim a benefit towards it.

Then govts can support Nurseries with reductions in rates / utilities etc with a rule X number of places occupied at the Affordable Rate results in govt funding towards 25% of your rates/utlities/insurances

FrannyScraps · 21/02/2025 20:01

POTC · 21/02/2025 19:56

No one is saying you shouldn't have to pay for those things or provide them if your child needs them. £22 PER DAY top up is way more than those things are costing thr nursery though, and many nurseries are charging it even if you provide your own nappies and packed lunch!

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But that's because the government have dictated how much they will pay for the funded hours. How else so they bridge the gap? You're right it doesnt cost that for nappies etc but where else can they get income from?

GrumpyWombat · 21/02/2025 20:00

ColourBlueColourPurple · 21/02/2025 18:01

I don't know how nurseries have survived for so long as it is. The staff (at my childs nursery) are on minimum wage, even those who have been qualified EYPs for years. They put so much effort into the children and make their nursery experience a great one. It's not an easy job, I think it's a disgrace what they are paid.

It is honestly soul destroying when you know you could earn more working in a supermarket.