Page 2 | Nurseries cannot charge extra to access free hours: updated guidance

MidnightPatrol · 2025-02-21T14:59:40+00:00

The DfE has updated their guidance to say while nurseries may ask for voluntary contributions towards nappies, food etc - they may not have mandatory top up fees to access free hours. Councils will have the power to fine providers who are asking parents to pay extra. https://news.sky.com/story/amp/parents-must-not-pay-mandatory-extra-charges-to-access-free-childcare-government-says-13313166 This is surely only going to reduce access to free hours for the majority, and push up costs for those paying for unfunded hours? And quite possibly, lead to nurseries closing. Other consequences which we are already seeing: - Minimum attendance to access free hours (4 days for the 30 hours or 3 days for 15). I am not clear if this would be banned under the guidance. - Nurseries not offering the free hours - Unfunded hours becoming more expensive to offset YABU - nurseries should not be able to charge extra YANBU - nurseries need to be able to cover their costs Given the funding is not enough to provide places, what exactly do the government expect the nurseries to do?

LoveFridaynight · 25/02/2025 07:25

JLou08 · 21/02/2025 16:34

Lancashire. The nursery gets 5.88 per hour for a 3 year old, a full day uses 10 of the free hours. Ratio of 1:8 for a level 3 practitioner, higher ratio if it is level 5 practitioner.
So 8 children equates to £47 per hour x 10 hours =£470 per day for 1 level 3 qualified. If you paid £15 per hour to the staff, which is actually pretty high for a level 3 childcare practitioner, there is still £320 per day left just for that group of 8 children to cover meals, running costs, managementwage/profit, meal, facilities. The nursery has about 50 children in total, some under 3s which they receive higher funding rates for so they will be getting that extra £320 per day a few times over. They also receive extra funding for children on SEN register and pupil premium for low income families.

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Children under 3 and some of the children with SEN are on a higher ratio though. So they will need more staff and the extra funding is not much (although I haven't worked in childcare for 7 months but don't imagine it's changed much). They also have to pay the staff you don't see, cleaner, admin staff, cook,, etc.

ByQuaintAzureWasp · 23/02/2025 19:16

Londonrach1 · 21/02/2025 16:06

Sadly alot of nurseries will close now

Or just say they are not offering free hours places

JoyousGreyOrca · 23/02/2025 19:08

@CarpetKnees fair enough about some parents.
I also used to go into many nurseries. Some of the menus sounded great, but most of the food in reality was basic.

CarpetKnees · 23/02/2025 19:04

That's a massive generalisation.
I used to go into about 40 Nurseries a year. the quality of food being served by those Nurseries that served food varied a lot.
Equally, the 'quality' of the food sent in by parents varied hugely too.

There's no way you can generalise.

JoyousGreyOrca · 23/02/2025 18:29

You do know many parents run their own businesses?
And frankly nursery food is usually inferior to the food parents serve

lampshadelampshade · 23/02/2025 14:59

TickingAlongNicely · 23/02/2025 13:40

So the problems seems to be that people don't know where the money goes (but its obviously not on paint and bread).

Would it be more acceptable to parents if they got a bill that said the daily running cost per child (including rent, tax, staff costs, utilities, and "consumables",) then the subsidy from the government, then the residual as the "top up".

People still wouldn’t get it. You’d get Sophie still moaning that the top-up is unreasonable because her 2 bed semi only costs £100/month to heat (because she benefits from a domestic energy price cap) and that she can feed her kids for £0.39p per day by buying yellow stickers at Lidl, so why can’t the nursery do the same?

JoyousGreyOrca · 23/02/2025 13:53

the average annual turnover for a nursery in the UK is around £200,000, with a net profit of around £30,000 to £40,000.

https://nurseryconsultancyuk.co.uk/the-financial-benefits-and-challenges-of-starting-a-nursery/

JoyousGreyOrca · 23/02/2025 13:48

CarpetKnees · 21/02/2025 17:02

This is showing a lack of awareness of costs (and I speak as someone who does not own, or work in a Nursery, nor have dc there).

You are only getting £47.04 per hour, if there are 8 dc there, all day, every day.
If there are just 9 children in the room, you need 2 members of staff, but will only be receiving £52.92 per hour. That starts to make the sums look very different.

As pp has said, for a practitioner to receive £15ph, that costs the employer quite a bit more - Employers NI contributions, Pension contribution, etc, so that nudges it up to about £21ph.

You can't run a Nursery with minimum staff levels.
You need a Manager, a SENCo (who needs release time, if not FT), cover for those on courses, those off sick, those on maternity leave, bereavement leave, annual leave. You need additional people to support room staff when you have children with significant needs. All staff need training (First Aid, Safeguarding, Prevent, Food Hygiene, SEND, specifics for children who have specific medical needs, etc etc).

They also receive extra funding for children on SEN register

This is incredibly naive. This is something I know a lot about.
A very small % of children with additional needs get any additional funding.
Funding is worked out differently in different LAs, but even the dc with the most significant needs, who need 1:1 for all the time they are at Nursery, don't get anywhere near full time funding, and don't get anything towards all the time the SENCo will be spending meeting professionals, filling in paperwork, etc.
It would be wonderful for all children to be well supported, but the funding is not there for that.

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It is true you need to factor in additional staffing costs for annual leave and sickness cover. Nursery staff virtually always just get the statutory minimum in annual leave, very little sick leave is usually tolerated, and additional training is usually minimal. Stuff like safeguarding training would usually be done online.

sprigatito · 23/02/2025 13:45

@Daisytails no, I don't think YOU are revolting, of course not. I think the climate you work in is appalling and doesn't work well for families or childcare workers. And I think the raw capitalist culture of mass childcare puts good childminders at a massive disadvantage, fwiw.

TickingAlongNicely · 23/02/2025 13:40

So the problems seems to be that people don't know where the money goes (but its obviously not on paint and bread).

Would it be more acceptable to parents if they got a bill that said the daily running cost per child (including rent, tax, staff costs, utilities, and "consumables",) then the subsidy from the government, then the residual as the "top up".

Eviolle · 23/02/2025 13:35

I don't kind paying top ups on one hand, but on the other, they're becoming ridiculous. We have to provide our own wipes, nappies etc., no option from nursery, but we pay £15/day for "consumables", so paper, pencils, craft materials and food. I don't know how much paint my child is using, but I can feed myself for less than £15/day, especially with what they're getting (cereal for breakfast, standard sandwiches/ crudites/ fruit for lunch and then an evening meal of curry/ casserole), and there's no option to pay less by sending in a packed lunch!

Now with two small ones in and both entitled to "free" hours, we are still paying £30/day even on the "free" days!

Daisytails · 23/02/2025 13:31

sprigatito · 23/02/2025 13:26

This is generally the case. Nurseries are lucrative businesses, owners are coining it while whining about reducing profits. The whole childcare industry is revolting and is symptomatic of what happens when private enterprise monopolises what should be a public service.

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The whole childcare system is revolting? Does that mean as a childminder I’m revolting? Am I coining it in? The sad fact is, I’m struggling to earn minimum wage!

LuckysDadsHat · 23/02/2025 13:29

sprigatito · 23/02/2025 13:26

This is generally the case. Nurseries are lucrative businesses, owners are coining it while whining about reducing profits. The whole childcare industry is revolting and is symptomatic of what happens when private enterprise monopolises what should be a public service.

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Not all nurseries. Big chains, yes. One off nurseries are no way coining it in.

Childminders definitely aren't coining it in. The already at a disadvantage against nurseries as they can only have a 3:1 ratio for under 4s while a nursery is 8:1 for 3+.

HopingForSomeSunshineSoon · 23/02/2025 13:27

sprigatito · 23/02/2025 13:26

This is generally the case. Nurseries are lucrative businesses, owners are coining it while whining about reducing profits. The whole childcare industry is revolting and is symptomatic of what happens when private enterprise monopolises what should be a public service.

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How many nurseries finances have you looked into?

sprigatito · 23/02/2025 13:26

surreygirl1987 · 21/02/2025 19:42

Hmmm. My son's old nursery owner was absolutely raking it in, then pleading poverty re why parents had to pay huge top up fees. She was a millionaire from the profits though. I can't say that's happening at all nurseries, but it was a gold mine for her. The money was going somewhere...

This is generally the case. Nurseries are lucrative businesses, owners are coining it while whining about reducing profits. The whole childcare industry is revolting and is symptomatic of what happens when private enterprise monopolises what should be a public service.

weareladyparts · 23/02/2025 13:21

LuckysDadsHat · 23/02/2025 13:17

What I have always wished should happen is that the government put in X amount per month/term into a parents childcare account on the government gateway that corresponds with the amount of funding they give to settings for that child. That way a parent can choose to use that funding for whatever provider they choose and will have to just pay whatever that provider charges. It would then be the parents personal choice. Some providers may choose to only charge the funding amount, and that is their choice, others may charge more but it is purely down to the parents how they choose to spend the funding amount. The money could not be withdrawn and it can only be paid to a named provider through the portal.

It would stop a lot of issues all round. The LAs wouldn't take their little slice off, parents would have a genuine up front choice of where to spend that funding as settings can say our fee is X per hour or X per day

I agree.

It doesn't matter how many posters say they don't mind paying at present - under current policy it's wrong.

I think the policy was put in to be inclusive but it's now unsustainable.

LuckysDadsHat · 23/02/2025 13:17

What I have always wished should happen is that the government put in X amount per month/term into a parents childcare account on the government gateway that corresponds with the amount of funding they give to settings for that child. That way a parent can choose to use that funding for whatever provider they choose and will have to just pay whatever that provider charges. It would then be the parents personal choice. Some providers may choose to only charge the funding amount, and that is their choice, others may charge more but it is purely down to the parents how they choose to spend the funding amount. The money could not be withdrawn and it can only be paid to a named provider through the portal.

It would stop a lot of issues all round. The LAs wouldn't take their little slice off, parents would have a genuine up front choice of where to spend that funding as settings can say our fee is X per hour or X per day

Kmward36 · 23/02/2025 13:13

I don’t mind paying a top up charge but I think it needs to be reasonably.

my DD’s previous nursery charges £17 a meal (so three times a day) and £40 a week for a nappies and wipes and £70 a weeks for extras like trips to the park . Regardless of how much you’re in. That’s over £250 a week for 3 days on top of funding. We left and found an alternative that was much better, less children and the top ups were reasonable!

mummyh2016 · 23/02/2025 13:06

Ours charges top ups and I'm happy paying them. They're a fantastic nursery and are bursting at the seams. They're expanding to meet demand. Yes there are some round here that don't charge extra but funnily enough they're the ones with spaces so I think it says it all. My eldest attended the same nursery and tbh with the funded hours I'm actually not paying much less for DS than I did when DD didn't have any funded hours. It would not surprise me if it phases out accepting the funded hours at some point and then bring their daily rates down.
Those kicking off about the top up fees will be the same ones moaning on here when they end up paying full whack as funded nurseries will cease to exist.

jannier · 23/02/2025 11:09

gettingthehangofsewing · 23/02/2025 09:16

@jannier I do sympathise, child care practitioners are screwed because they can't demand a higher fee from the government and they can't pay the bills on the fee the government pays. It's also unfair on the parents having their fees hiked up to substitute costs not everyone can afford it. And because the majority are entitled to free funding now child care practitioners can't afford to opt out.

There is no good solution.

But the parents are paying less than they were when they couldn't claim funding so their costs are reduced either way. If the government called it subsidised there wouldn't be a problem the issue is the governments expecting private individuals to subsidise their policies effectively raising taxes to those individuals whilst stopping them increasing income. Added to the ridiculous costs like heating....my gas bill is £25 a day...needed to keep young children warm. I'm giving up next year. I'd be better off at Tesco's

Juicyapple44 · 23/02/2025 11:04

gettingthehangofsewing · 23/02/2025 09:16

@jannier I do sympathise, child care practitioners are screwed because they can't demand a higher fee from the government and they can't pay the bills on the fee the government pays. It's also unfair on the parents having their fees hiked up to substitute costs not everyone can afford it. And because the majority are entitled to free funding now child care practitioners can't afford to opt out.

There is no good solution.

Off course providers can opt out, in fact locally they already are . I have seen loads of comments from childminders who have already emailed the la advising they will not be offering funding from April going forward. Some are stopping all together, others are no longer offering the 3-4 year old funding. A few are only offer the 3-4 until September then stopping when the children they currently have go to school.

Barrenfieldoffucks · 23/02/2025 09:59

JLou08 · 21/02/2025 16:34

Lancashire. The nursery gets 5.88 per hour for a 3 year old, a full day uses 10 of the free hours. Ratio of 1:8 for a level 3 practitioner, higher ratio if it is level 5 practitioner.
So 8 children equates to £47 per hour x 10 hours =£470 per day for 1 level 3 qualified. If you paid £15 per hour to the staff, which is actually pretty high for a level 3 childcare practitioner, there is still £320 per day left just for that group of 8 children to cover meals, running costs, managementwage/profit, meal, facilities. The nursery has about 50 children in total, some under 3s which they receive higher funding rates for so they will be getting that extra £320 per day a few times over. They also receive extra funding for children on SEN register and pupil premium for low income families.

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Similar on the Isle of Wight actually.

When my child went (he's only 7, so not long ago) there were no tops. He used the 30 hours, then anything over was charged in 15 minute increments. Only extras were meals if you wanted them.

Farellyo · 23/02/2025 09:24

Of course providers can opt out, there will be a lot of settings sadly folding in the coming months, and there will always be people that require childcare so they will be able to opt out of offering it and still fill places.

gettingthehangofsewing · 23/02/2025 09:16

@jannier I do sympathise, child care practitioners are screwed because they can't demand a higher fee from the government and they can't pay the bills on the fee the government pays. It's also unfair on the parents having their fees hiked up to substitute costs not everyone can afford it. And because the majority are entitled to free funding now child care practitioners can't afford to opt out.

There is no good solution.

jannier · 23/02/2025 09:11

gettingthehangofsewing · 22/02/2025 22:53

I use to work in families information service, supporting families in accessing 2 and 3 year funding.

It has always been the case that extras must be voluntary and families should not be penalised for not paying for them (but must provide the extras themselves)

In the early days child care settings risked having their funding withdrawn if they did not adhere to this but over the years it appears to have slacken off.

Yes it has but the list is being tightened up. Parents are being encouraged to refuse it so more pressure is put on settings.
We are effectively employed by our LAs with no benefits of employment we don't even make minimum wage in some areas and are then supposed to buy materials and equipment from what we get.