To think that most “self-made” people had way more help than they admit?

Yup! Uni fried is self made and minted … except his dad paid for his uni and gave him an allowance so he was debt free, then put a deposit down on a flat for him where we rented off friend and that covered the mortgage, then he went into ‘business’ with his dad as a guarantor. He sold the flat and made loads of money and kept upgrading the properties he lived in. Then bought another rental property with the dad covering the deposit again and charging minimal
Interest this time.
Business has done well but to hear him tell it he came from Victorian style poverty to become the man he is today…

Obvs having a guarantor, financial safety net,
bring gifted money and given low interest family loans has had a massive impact but he’s never acknowledge that in a million years!

Whilst it's not impossible I think genuine rags to riches stories are far more reliant on good luck than those who started out with more support/safety nets. Therefore more other people in the same starting position will have failed in their similar attempts at risk-taking to accumulate wealth.

What I really dislike is these stories being used to essentially blame people for their own poverty - you too could be rich if you worked hard enough. Sure, hard work is necessary but not enough on its own imo. Either good luck or privilege will also play their part.

I think it's rare to find someone who's self made.

The two genuinely 'self made' people I know both had older parents who were able to care for the grandkids most days out of the week so the person could focus on their business, which I think is pretty special these days no matter what income band you're on, or whether you run your own business or are employed. I consider that help.
But they weren't given any money/funding or mentoring to help with business, and started from a working class background in a deprived city, left average/min wage jobs, and both didn't go to uni. They also aren't what most people would consider wealthy, just able to make this their only job (and happy with it!).

DH is self-made in the true sense of the word. Absolutely no handouts or legs up. he has done very very well and that makes him incredibly unsympathetic to people who grew up in the same environment who blame their circumstances. He has insane levels of drive and ambition. All these words like tenacity, determination. You can always make something of yourself wherever you come from. But it’s having that follow through and tenacity when things are not quite going your way that is rare. He’s never wobbled or doubted himself.

I also see a lot of people who grew up with my background, so very privileged, who have had all the benefits and advantages and they genuinely think they are something really special and different to the average person. I have often wondered how they or I would even have done if we hadn’t been filled with so much confidence and had everything paid for to a point. Having said all that, at some point you do need to find your drive.

I should add that my grandfather had the privilege of inherited intelligence (the post office did an IQ test on him after WW2 and he was off the scale - but couldn’t move into the civil service as he had left school so young) and good health (lived to age 95 with no chronic health problems).

Yes it’s possible. My grandfather left school at 14 from a poor family who gave him nothing. They couldn’t even let him stay in school until 16 as they needed his meagre wage as a post office clerk coming in.

He died with an estate worth £6m - all entirely from his hard work setting up a business and buying commercial property (in the 1960s!) . He gave away a huge amount to charities before his death too - and contributed to the community tirelessly. So maybe not massively successful in global terms but pretty inspirational to me.

I think there are many very wealthy people that are not particularly intelligent and who lack nuance.

I also think intelligence can be a barrier to the kind of decision making required to be super wealthy.

Part of the lack of nuance of some super wealthy, seems to be an inability to understand that not everyone would choose their life and that not everyone values wealth above all else.

Can't speak for others but my DH (and then myself) didn't have help we have built a business from scratch and worked our backsides off to make it what it is today. We did that one with no help from anyone, we now employ 12 people and have a comfortable living although it has become harder to continue building our business due to the current economic climate and NI increases etc

A cousin started off as an apprentice carpenter. Finished as one of the biggest funeral directors in the north-east, plus a huge carpentry and bespoke joinery workshop. Started with nothing.

What about all the silver spooned toss pots 🤣😅😜, that's life has gone downhill.

@EilonwyWithRedGoldHair , obviously people have different levels of ability and intelligence but the question was whether to become wealthy it is necessary to have some help or privilege and the answer is emphatically no.

Rags to riches stories are everywhere, I ve just bee reading up on the Golden Age and also on the Washington West Coast 30 tear tech boom, property boom. Many self made people got lucky by hitting an economic boom at the right time, combined with commitment.

Having advantages makes it massively easier to build a basically successful life. That doesn't mean it's impossible to succeed without those advantages but it's much much rarer and harder.

That said, there is an interesting phenomenon among the uber successful - both self-made multimillionaire, entrepreneurs and leaders of movements/ countries. There is a disproportionate number of those who have suffered badly - either from living with a setback like dyslexia k ok easing to failure in conventional academics, or losing a parent young. The theory is that these things can build resilience, toughness, a determination to succeed, and almost force a 'think outside the box' willingness to go against the grain- all vital qualities for growing exponentially or innovating. That said, these populations are also disproportionate in the prison system.... there really does seem to be some truth in the 'if it doesn't break you it will make you stronger' concept . Malcolm Gladwell's 'Outliers" and "David and Goliath' are really interesting reads on this.

Everyone gets a mix of good & bad luck, a mix of influences and assets.

Is the rich kid who has no work ethic and a taste for cocaine more privileged than a poor kid with loving, supportive parents, who lands a place at an outstanding grammar school.

It's impossible to factor in every element. Some have great genes, some are born into an affluent society or in a period with no wars. Some have beauty, charm, talent, a natural ability to sell ....

I studied with a girl whose dad was absurdly wealthy but had 'done it off his own back' and expected her to do the same. He refused to help her in any way. She worked as an escort while studying law to cover her fees and bills. She'd been to an expensive school, she's a city solicitor now but I didn't envy her. I wouldn't have done what she did, for any money.

Calling someone privileged simple because daddy is rich, is too simplistic.

I think that, leaving financial help out of it, some people fail to credit the fact that they had support from parents or spouse in terms of being allowed to stay in the family home and not being expected to contribute financially while they got their start-up off the ground, or studied for another career.

Those things are invaluable. If you are not able to do those things, then you have much less chance of 'self-making'.

Stop believing the lie that socialism tells you. You are not chained to the circumstances you were born to. There is no mythical pie that the privileged hoard most of. Go off and work relentlessly, take huge risks, make sacrifices; grow your own pie!
@Icanthinkformyselfthanks

That would lead to many people being penniless and homeless - great risks don't always pay off. And that's not what socialism tells us, socialism just recognises that not everyone can achieve that - I mean it's not actually possible for everyone to be rich, even if everyone worked relentlessly, took huge risks etc. and had the same drive and ambition and intelligence. For a start many rich people need to employ people, society needs certain jobs filled that you don't get rich doing - or do you want there to be no cleaners, teachers, nurses, care workers, delivery drivers, factory & warehouse workers...

Totally agree. I grew up in what would be defined as a lower mc family: local independent day school funded through family’s business (which was always very unstable), but there was absolutely no money besides, no safety net, no nothing.
I grew up with a constant knot of worry in my tummy about money and never feeling enough.
On the plus side, it gave me tremendous drive and motivation to make money and make something of myself. But I still feel inadequate inside as I just don’t have the patina of a comfortable upbringing - I don’t ski, I don’t play tennis, I find it very difficult to switch off and relax.

My husband grew up in a very ostensibly u mc family - leading public school, shooting etc - but his school fees were paid by a family member and they were the ‘poor mice’ family members. He too in turn worked his socks off and is now a multi millionaire.

Despite our different backgrounds, the one thing that unites us is this shared sense of insecurity, hard work ethic and drive.
But we are both very, very conscious of the privilege and huge safety net that we both now have. That is invaluable.

My husband was born into poverty, mother was a cleaner in a factory, father had died when my husband was 12. No money for anything.

his mother died when he was in his 20s of a cruel disease.

he was the first in his family to go to uni and worked all the way through. There was perhaps an element of luck in that he chose something that he is very good at… But I honestly think that that’s about as far as you could stretch that theory. He works incredibly incredibly hard, long hours, a lot of responsibility… (I work very hard too!)

He is now head of tech / high earner and we have a lovely home and two wonderful girls. I would call that rags to riches.

however i do think you are right in that many many people down play how much help they have had.

I agree with those who say sometimes people do make it from scratch on their own but the majority have some kind of help and may or may not realise it.

A background where there's a backup plan eg parents who can support their offspring so if it all goes wrong they won't be homeless and starving, a loan from a relative because banks wouldn't provide one fir a startup business, free childcare from a relative, a family connection with someone significant in the chosen field, even just supportive parents helping with startup paperwork or giving lifts to far away meetings that could be really important etc.

One business man my friends dad knew was a highly successful car dealer. Mega millionaire. But apparently he was a jumped up little nobody who sold dodgy cars and ripped people off at first before his business expanded into multiple garages and trading standards laws came into force. Yet he "did it himself". Off the backs of people who he trampled over in his haste to profit.

No, I don't think you are correct, although @worriedrelative makes a very valid point about privilege.

What do you mean by 'self made'? Do you mean people who succeed off their own bat (leading ordinary lives), or do you mean people who become millionaires? I've known both types, which is why I think 'true self made success' is possible.

I agree that it's not something that is possible for everyone. Let's not be coy about it. Some people lack the intellectual capacity, the courage, the opportunity, the motivation... Life choices they have made close doors to them. Some people take easier and already forged paths.

But some people make their own opportunities, some people don't listen to the naysayers, some people are driven and determined and highly motivated to achieve a different outcome. Some people are very focused and mindful of the life choices they make. Some people take risks and don't play it safe. Rather than focusing on what could go wrong, they focus on what could go right.

Some of it might come down to privilege for some people but not all.

And, yes, lots of people work hard but someone who always and only ever works hard for someone else is never going to be 'self made'.

Not sure anyone has mentioned family circumstances either - my mum stayed at home with us as kids so my dad could work 24/7. Think 4 and 5 am starts to drive from one end of the country and back in a day.

If he had needed to do school pick up/drop off this wouldn’t have been possible. And that’s just not affordable for most families now. And also if my mum hadn’t shared his ambition it would have (and did, but they got through it) caused major problems with their marriage.

Hard work I think is key but I don’t think it always equates to success. But for people who have worked hard and found success I think it’s understandable that they make the connection because that’s been their experience.

But by hard work I think it needs to be a willingness to do what other people won’t. So in our case it was working weekends catching up with paperwork so we had to be very quiet around wherever he was working. Sitting for 2 hours on holiday ready to go out for dinner waiting for him to get off the phone.

It’s very easy to only look at the end result. It hasn’t always been an easy journey to get there though.

I mean, it definitely helps to have connections, a financial safety net and access to resources doesn't it. I don't think it's necessary less impressive for someone who's had some help, but i do hate those who create a false narrative around being self made when there's zero shame or anything wrong with either acknowledging the privilege or just not mentioning it.

Yes.

We are wealthy and successful despite our circumstances. My husband particularly came from reverse snobbery background and my family were piss poor refugees living in racist inner city London. Where I was brought up.

It was sheer determination to get up and out of those circa that drove us. No family help, yes using beer crates as furniture until loans were paid off. Our employees driving better cars than us, making sure their wages and mortgages were paid off before our own.

But yes luck and timing were occasionally in our favour - not always though. We've taken risks, made mistakes, had so much personal tragedy and trauma alongside it.

But we've stuck to our path. Not defined ourselves by others' positions and outlook.

If you're feeling a bit resentful of others that have done well you would do well to be inspired rather than bring them down.

I will be giving my children every leg up that you describe.

YANBU. I really dislike it when people say 'I worked hard for my money' - There are plenty of people that work incredibly hard and can't buy food at the end of the month.

I think one of the following always plays a factor in wealth: luck, selfish decision making, family help.

I don't think Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos or Alan Sugar are 'nice' or kind people.

It is not something that is possible for everyone.