To think getting four A*s at A-level is pointless and might even be bad

DS got 4 A*s he didn't work 18 hours a day ( nothing like) he played football, saw his mates, went to parties- normal 18yo stuff.

He is at Oxbridge on course for a first he still doesn't work all that hard. If you are very gifted ( his full scale IQ was measured at >160) it's not difficult.

I see what you mean OP. I suppose it depends on the pupil.
I was very studious in 6th form. We were only allowed to do 3 A levels, and there was no such thing as A* then. My uni offer was 3 Bs, but I worked really hard and got 3 As. Went to uni and was lazy. I was just worn out with 2 solid years of hard graft, and I wanted to have some fun. My course involved multiple exams throughout the whole 5 years, and I had to re-do a couple of them. I’m sure that wouldn’t have happened had I not burned myself out at A level.

Although you may have wanted a better degree result, a 2:2 is not a bad one. I have 4 A Levels at grade A and a 2:2 in a competitive, difficult subject. I wanted to challenge myself with my degree. It was challenging, I haven't pursued it as a career although I do work in a field where it is useful. I also discovered I wasn't cut out for a career in my degree subject. Had I got a 2:1 I think I would have been encouraged to pursue the career and been deeply unhappy. Things happen for a reason.

That's interesting. Similarly I got four As at A level before A stars and I was used to getting top marks at school. I struggled to get a 2:1 and wondered how some of my friends got 1sts. Uni is completely different learning environment and skills needed to sixth form. I needed ABB to get in uni. 30 years later I'm starting to understand how life works and how to achieve success. Taken a while! I also suspect I am neurodivergent.

I don't think A-levels results tell you much on their own.

The people on my doctorate programme that struggled the most were the students who had obtained straight As at A-level. They just thought working harder and harder and memorising more and more was the answer. Whereas academics beyond A-level, and certainly beyond undergrad level, requires more natural intellect, abstract thought and creativity.

A's, and even A*'s at GCSE and A-level can be obtained by the most people with the right parental support (in some cases, 'pushing'), sometimes tutors, a little privilege and a lot of effort. That's fantastic news if the person themself wants to go into a career where those A-levels and the effort involved paid off.

Personally, for my children, we will think about what THEY want in their future, what grades they need, how much they enjoy studying etc.. and go from there. I will always reassure them, that they are smart cookies! Just because someone else gets a higher grade doesn't mean they r more intelligent!

I think if you get 4 As because you LOVE studying, find learning naturally easy, didn't need tutors or small class sizes to give you a hand up, and will go on to continue studying and reading about the subject matter for fun in your free time after exams, then crack on! Those 4 A's are worth it!!

If however, those 4 A*s are the results of extra help, tutors, parental pushing, too much hard work, you didn't enjoy studying and hate learning now you've completed those A-levels, then you could question why you did it and whether it was worth it!

your point being??

Depends what you mean by "a bad thing"? Putting so much effort into it that you end up very stressed and dont have time for anything else, is pretty clearly a bad thing. But if you can get 4 A stars while pursuing broader interests, having plenty of downtime and not getting stressed then presumably that's a pretty good signal of ability. And, all other things being equal, better than getting lower grades.

Obviously getting top A level grades gives you more options when deciding the next stage of your education (or starting your career).

However Only Magic Circle law firms, big 4 accountancy firms and a handful of financial institutions are that bothered about A levels when they recruit graduates. Way more companies run their own tests, assessments and carry out interviews which are designed to see whether they think people will fit into their culture etc.

When DD2 applied for her Masters (at a very top institution), they didn't ask.about A level grades at all.

I'm in Scotland but for doing a degree course in healthcare or education there is usually an interview to find out if you have any skills or work place assessments etc that show that you really want the qualification. It's not just the top grades are of use if you puke at vomit or can't stand children if you see what I mean. So better to research what occupations students have gone on to after uni as well as their grades and try to match.

I know what you are trying to say OP but the fact is the very best students have 4 A stars and have a stellar record of achievement in other areas too.
Rowed for England, Ran for their county, lead flautist in the National youth orchestra, set up a successful design company at the age of 16.
That sort of thing.

STEM subjects are viewed differently. My DD looked at Cambridge for engineering as she was forecast 3 x A at A Level. She was advised by a faculty member that although they state 3x A on the prospectus in reality most that are accepted have 4 A Levels.
She decided not to bother but went to another very good Uni where the entry grades were A*, A, A.

That's interesting. I've got a late diagnosis of ASD and I was the opposite. I didn't 'get' A-levels at all. I didn't understand the level I was supposed to hit and ended up with CCD and scraping my way into my uni of choice.

I really loved uni work and understood what was required and got a 1st.

My DH was similar to you. I think so many different factors are at play during that stage of life.

The point of A-levels isn't just to get you to university though it's to teach you knowledge for future use whether at university or in your future career. Doing well at A-level generally makes it easier at university - otherwise you have to catch up once you're there. Even if you're not studying the exact subjects at university you studied at a-level things like essay writing and critical thinking really are transferable. And breadth of knowledge is useful in all kinds of unforeseeable ways.

With 4 A*s you also have more options for the future, e.g. if you want to change direction at university or later in your career.

My DS is 25 now (so the following might be a bit out of date!) but his Grammar 6th Form told students to pick 4 A Levels but they were only really expected to sit for 3 by the end of year 13.

This was so that if (when?) a pupil realised they had made a grave mistake and couldn’t possibly continue on with the now-despised subject, they would still have 3 A levels worth of UCAS points and be able to move up to uni with their classmates (and not have to spend another year cramming in a third A Level at a FE college).

This worked particularly well back when you could quit a subject at the end of Year 12 and still end up with an AS level. Under that system the 4th subject didn’t feel like a waste of time because you still had something to show for it.

By the time DS was in 6th Form most subjects had done away with the AS Level and the others were phasing it out.
Not sure exactly why the Government ditched it but my son’s teacher said exams at the end of each of the two years had led to more time revising the subject matter than actually learning the subject matter, which is clearly untenable. Returning to just A Levels allowed for a better learning trajectory, yet it seems to me that 4 subjects is almost a relic of the AS level times? As in, it was normal to study 4 subjects at the beginning of Year 12 but it was with the aim of finishing Year 13 with 3 A levels and 1 AS Level.

That said, it’s clear some teens are more than capable of taking 4 subjects at A Level and I wouldn’t want that opportunity to be removed from them just because it’s not necessary for University applications.

I suppose the challenge is how to cater for a wide range of learning styles and personality types?
Because the safety valve of a droppable 4th subject is crucial for some teens but at the same time, 4 can be an awful lot of pressure on the diligent, perfectionist teens who wouldn’t consider any subject droppable under any circumstances - it’s great to aim high academically but not if it’s at the expense of mental wellbeing or leaves no time for creative extracurriculars or hanging out with peers.

Oh, I'm about 25 years past this ;) It just looks like an anomalous result, given that I had mostly As at GCSE, straight As at A-level and then...damp squib.

I've had a good career thus far, I've only had one interview where I didn't get the job and I always get offered interviews, and everything worked out pretty well in the end. However, I was just making the point that...sometimes, better A-levels than required by university offers can actually be useful. I suppose it would've been useful context that my first-choice offer from uni was actually BBB.

The universities have clear ideas of what they want in my opinion. Interview gives them a better feel of the candidate maybe? Instead of predicted grades from teachers. My friend has a 3 C offer to study medicine at UCL. This was 20+ yrs ago. He got the 4 As he was always going to get but clearly UCL wanted to him to chose them.

A 2:2 isn't bad, ntmdino. Obviously you were expected to get at least a 2:1 but a 2:2 is pretty good and usually indicates somebody has had a good time at university. That wasn't true for you but when you are sending in a cv or completing an application form, it looks that way.

Many of the cleverest and most successful people achieved a 2:2, some even a third, remember that.

You have to get past this. It's what you do now that counts.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing, or a waste of time. Four A* A levels will prove to any employer that you have brains and discipline which will translate well into workplace skills.

Ex Head of Sixth Form here. Study 3 A-Levels and do something else relevant to the course- read around it, do some online learning or do the extended essay. Unis generally do not want 4, they want 3 with a student who has something personal about the subject to talk about. Same for the personal statement.

Remember that most universities at the level you are talking about are not publishing grade expectations, they are minimum application grades. Not all will interview or test separately. The reality is that the vast majority of serious applicants for those top universities for those massively oversubscribed courses will have the very top marks. That means the universitiies are most likely to accept over-performing candidates rather than those who hit the minimum.

Further maths is one of those subjects that is required at the highest level for some of the most oversubscribed courses at those universities so it is natural to expect that successful applicants will have those results.

Having said that, top marks in 3 A levels will almost always be preferable to lower grades across 4 A levels. Some unis will actually only offer on 4 if you apply whilst taking 4. Apply when taking 3 and you will be offered on 3.

Yeah, all that hard work to do well in subjects I enjoyed and was good at, get into a top university and come out with a First, land a graduate role at a top firm - what a waste of time all that was!

Yes, I didn't need to get 4As (pre-A*s being introduced) but for some people the thought process is along the lines of "Why climb a mountain? Because it's there".

I know this isn't everyone's take on things but I personally would have been devastated at less than all As, because I knew I was capable of those grades. It's no less valid than the disappointment of someone less academic who was aiming for all Bs but who got BCC. Or indeed someone really sporty (definitely not me!) not coming first in an event they had trained for months for.

Success comes in many forms and A*s aren't the be all and end all, but there's no need to dismiss the achievenents of those who do well academically as "pointless".

Dd had the option of taking 4 A levels, but after much discussion with her 6th form advisor she decided to do 3. The reasoning behind this was that for the course and the uni’s she wanted to apply to, AAA was needed, plus a good performance at interview, plus evidence of relevant work or work experience. She decided to concentrate on the extra curricular stuff, to make sure her application stood out. It was the right decision in the end as she got a conditional offer at her first choice Uni, and waiting list for a couple of other

The A-stars will get the interviews (if applicable) and will get the offers.
Usually the actual offer is As only, not A star.

So there is a point. The 4th A level is not necessary, but is a help.

Some kids are capable of doing well at 4 A levels, and would be bored only doing 3. Especially if they aren't essay based. I've got one friend whose kid is currently doing 4 plus about 10 orchestras, and EPQ plus other stuff - and he'll get 4A* doing barely any work. He could read fluently in nursery.

I remember chatting to someone in one of the big four firms and A-levels counted for a lot. Possibly more than the degree. If you didn’t get brilliant a-levels it didn’t matter what you got in your degree.