To not give my teen DD medication

To be honest @whippy1981 I have lost track of what yiur point is

what I do know is it it incredibly unhelpful on a thread where a mother is asking for advice

Medication to treat OCD and anxiety (I’m talking about Sertraline)in teenagers isn’t prescribed for nothing. My experience has been that camhs treatment failed to improve our child’s OCD (which was absolutely debilitating), but the prescribed meds worked very quickly very well. It made a huge difference. It’s not something you do lightly so I understand how you feel - if the meds don’t suit her they can be stopped.

@whippy1981
With respect, I don't think this is the place to air your view that mental ill health does not exist. It doesn't matter whether you are right or wrong, if you want a theoretical discussion then start a thread for that. This prolonged side-debate is rderailing the OP's concerns. You have experessed a view, she can consider that view. Arguing it back and forth adds nothing to the thread.

Nope I am not. I am the one not using stigma. The minute you label is the minute you use stigma. I didn't say you cannot take medication. I said there is no need to. The studies have shown there is no chemical cause or biological.

Saying I do not use the word abnormal like everyone else is me using stigma - how come?

You call them abnormal when you label.

It is normal so why are you saying they are abnormal? I never said shut up and cope, those are your words not mine. I never mentioned coping. Not once. You are now showing you do not understand my point as I have never mentioned that.

So you are wrong in saying that as you have read that wrong.

The people who make the medical manual who actually review the labels say there are none. They are putting it into a book saying there is no evidence of any biology yet we can use biology to treat something we have no proof of existing in the body yet?

With leukemia we have tests to prove that someone has it. Being distressed is not a disease.

Completely agree that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but how can we say these things exist - all 500+ of them without one bit of evidence that any of them exist? Not one test. To me something is fishy there and given the history that shows where all these labels came from also needs to be remembered.

All built on stigma. I mean why does black man's disorder exist? I'd love to know the science behind that one! Or wandering womb? I mean the fact that being gay was considered a mental health condition at one point - with no proof but they were 'treated' because that is what we do when someone is mentally ill, right? We 'treat them' to make them more socially acceptable and fit into society not look at what in society is causing them distress.

The field is built on racism, homophobia, classism, misogyny and oppression and all the labels have come from these. All of them.

@whippy1981 but you are the only
one stigmatising mental health by saying there is no chemical or biological cause and saying you cannot take medication

we shouldn’t be normalising the idea of having to cope with mental health issues which forgive me if I am wrong with what you are saying but that is what is coming across. That mental health issues are so normal we should just shut up and cope.

I've said this to you because you seem upset and angry. I agree that debate is a good and healthy thing, but if it starts to upset you, then step back. I was actually looking out for you, not defending either stance.

So ones that are not managed like overworking is overlooked because.....?

I've not once said stop supporting I have said support. You are incorrect in saying so about me.

Nope there is nothing about my trauma here in relation to this - again labelling me and my trauma as being a problem is ironic! Show how you can label someone and use stigma without any testing! Highlights my point perfectly, thank you!

What 'conditions'? You mean people labelled as abnormal?

I do know how they work I was talking about the biology of the root cause of the pain.

You use mental and stigma all the time - it is rude to use stigma which you do and yet you feel it is ok to label people abnormal.

By all means tell me the medical science of something the creators admit there is no science behind. Someone who doesn't understand the history of the field or how it came to be is not wrong for using terms that you find offensive but they are terms that I do not use but have taken from society - I can use your term and call everyone abnormal which I think is awful so tend not to use it. The whole field is about calling people abnormal and you support that then say it is not wrong to call people abnormal?

I think it is. I am using societies terms not mine. I do not think any terms are needed! I am using terms used that society uses against those who are distressed. If you find that offensive then that is what you support. They are not the words I use in life. I do not label. I do not think anyone is 'mental' or 'mentally ill' or 'abnormal' to use the words from here.

I think it is normal. Mental health is normal. To suggest it is abnormal is not my cup of tea, however just because you think something different doesn't mean it is incoherent. It means you believe in one thing and I believe in another.

You believe in stigma. I do not. Simple.

Just because we don’t understand the biological mechanisms involved in mental illness doesn’t mean there aren’t any.

The biological mechanisms underpinning childhood acute lymphoblastic leukaemia weren’t understood when Sidney Farber ran clinical trials of folate antagonists in his patients, which many scientists and doctors opposed. When patients went into remission, it wasn’t fully understood why. He went on to refine this treatment and saved countless children’s lives. He is considered the father of modern chemotherapy.

Anticonvulsants were found to be an effective treatment for epilepsy long before we had scans to detect it. It’s still not fully understood how they work.

Many treatments for diseases where the underlying physiological mechanisms are now clear began as trial and error, when the causes of the diseases were unclear. How patients respond to treatments in clinical trials can further our understanding and therefore bring us a step closer to pinning down the cause.

The brain is an extremely complex organ and cognition involves highly intricate interplay between myriad neurons, neurotransmitters, brain regions and hemispheres. We don’t yet have the technology to understand this.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I do not aim to change opinions. I aim to give mine as the OP asked for it and I have said numerous times people are entitled to believe in different models. I do not believe it is ok to get personal about someone that believes something different and in that respect I will challenge disrespect and name calling each time. If people then ask me questions and call me names and mislabel me (the irony is lost on them) then I will then respond which one would think that being called names on here I would challenge that. It isn't about changing opinions. It is debating. I have said time and time again others have a right to believe in other models yet others have said I have no right to believe in the model I believe in - the one that removes stigma.

Debate is just this - sharing differing opinions. However some people get personal and I have a right to respond to that.

Out of curiosity - What did those who I have debated with say when you said this to them?

@Foxjonessssss

i think this thread has gotten somewhat side tracked but I think you need to take from this

1. your role is not to decide but to help your DD make an informed decision as it is her choice. Give her the tools and confidence to decide
2. Think about whether you could do with talking to someone - I get the impression you are still slightly and understandably in denial about what your daughter is dealing with
3. CAmHS do not see medication as a first line choice of dealing with it - to get to the point they are recommending it means the therapies have not been working as well as they would like
4. intrusive thoughts are not something that you should learn to deal with or manage if there is a possiblity they can do

good luck

People can disagree but you're making sweeping assumptions that medications are not needed for severe MH issues and do not help. I'm speaking from personal experience that they have saved someone life, no amount of therapy, talking could reframe things, now they manage a pretty regular life.
That's my experience.
No doubt you're anti vac

Most trauma responses you do not notice so you ignore most and only focus on the ones that cause you discomfort and basically dope them so that person can be within society and not cause discomfort to others.
So one of the most common trauma responses is overworking and people pleasing. They are often celebrated and not once have I seen anyone being doped for people pleasing or working hard. They are largely ignored despite it causing issues within their lives because it doesn't make society uncomfortable. It also limits them socially and within their work or within their family life etc. So someone barely able to function because of overwork and you do what? Ignore it! Every single time!

So... because SOME mental health issues are not specifically and sufficiently managed, we should stop supporting ALL mental health issues? Sure, that makes sense.

What you mean is you focus on those behaviours that you seem as problematic to society and you and say that you treat things that impact on you and tart it up as being for them all the while ignoring most responses because they are not problematic to you but to the individual but that doesn't matter? Right?

I don't fully understand what you're saying here, but I think you're saying that it's only things that are problematic to society and that we're "tarting it up" to be about for them? I guess there are times that's true - eg when someone's behaviour is disruptive or whatever. But I think your own trauma is blinding you to the reality here. People with severe depression or OCD want meds because it allows them to do the things they love, spend time with their loved ones etc.

I've been there and nope not been a fan of the meds as there is no need for them so nope you are wrong and no I will not be a fan of them if I see it. I see it day in day out I have lived it and nope never will be a fan of using medication untested for something that has not been proven to be needed.
Fine, you don't have to use medication but your claims that meds are untested is just bollocks. There's no other way to put it. It's bollocks. lots and lots of meds have long history and lots and lots of data on efficacy and long term benefits vs side effects. You don't have to believe it, I can't force you, but it is true.

Understanding what is causing them pain and not ignoring them would do better.
Well, again, sure, lots of people have agreed that many conditions need meds to be alongside other therapies to try to get to the bottom of things. Just like paracetomol allows the body to reduce the pain so that it can focus on healing.

Paracetamol deals with something within the body that is a problem - nerves causing pain through being exposed or trapped or damaged etc. You actually don't understand how pain inhibitors work. They literally inhibit the brain from feeling the pain - they don't actually STOP the pain or repair the damage. They jsut encourge yoru brain not to notice it so much.

What is incoherent about saying using stigma is wrong? Or are you trying to label me as mental there - the irony proving it is just stigma when someone doesn't behave as 'all others do'?! ha ha! Comply or be labelled mental! Yes?
You arguments are often incorehent yes. Including the fact that you think being incoherent means I'm calling you "mental". What a rude, offensive term for anyone who may be struggling and certainly, it's not a word I would ever use. If I was to use it, I wouldn't use it to describe someone who doesn't seem to understand certain realities of medical science and healthcare.

@whippy1981 with the greatest of respect, whilst you are entitled to have your own opinion and beliefs, and indeed anger, please take a step back and give yourself perspective that a person disagreeing with you on the internet isn't important, and you can't change everyone's opinions to your own. I say this without prejudice.

@whippy1981
People can have therapy etc and have medication, someone close to me was suicidal with PTSD, endless therapy and finally decided to use medication, it has saved their life and without it they'd be dead, nobody has ignored their trauma or said it's abnormal!!
Medication and therapy are not exclusive,I'm sorry but you're woefully ill informed.
I find you a deliberately obtuse and antagonistic poster and your comments are very hurtful to those going through extreme MH issues.

Most trauma responses you do not notice so you ignore most and only focus on the ones that cause you discomfort and basically dope them so that person can be within society and not cause discomfort to others.

So one of the most common trauma responses is overworking and people pleasing. They are often celebrated and not once have I seen anyone being doped for people pleasing or working hard. They are largely ignored despite it causing issues within their lives because it doesn't make society uncomfortable. It also limits them socially and within their work or within their family life etc. So someone barely able to function because of overwork and you do what? Ignore it! Every single time! What you mean is you focus on those behaviours that you seem as problematic to society and you and say that you treat things that impact on you and tart it up as being for them all the while ignoring most responses because they are not problematic to you but to the individual but that doesn't matter? Right?

When people work their arses off - do you dope them up? When individuals people please and arse lick do you dope them up? Nope. All can be trauma responses and cause issues but as they are seen as 'good' within society then you ignore them and the person struggling.

I've been there and nope not been a fan of the meds as there is no need for them so nope you are wrong and no I will not be a fan of them if I see it. I see it day in day out I have lived it and nope never will be a fan of using medication untested for something that has not been proven to be needed. Understanding what is causing them pain and not ignoring them would do better. Most people are ignored about their mental health and stigmatised as you have done. I refuse to use stigma or use meds when there is no reason to.

Paracetamol deals with something within the body that is a problem - nerves causing pain through being exposed or trapped or damaged etc. There is nothing within the body that is damaged when someone suffers trauma.

What is incoherent about saying using stigma is wrong? Or are you trying to label me as mental there - the irony proving it is just stigma when someone doesn't behave as 'all others do'?! ha ha! Comply or be labelled mental! Yes?

That is exactly the attitude thathas led to so many people addicted to prescribed medication. It is a well documented fact that (a) people have defintely been prescribed medications without consideration of alternatives and (b) this happens more frequently with women.

Op I would discuss this with the prescribers - what are they prescribing, why do they think she needs it, are there alternatives etc. Then you should both discuss it but in the end I would let her choose. Just make it an informed choice.

So what tests are conducted before these meds are given? As far as I am aware there are no tests conducted before medication is given.

If so please explain to me what is being tested and how, what units of measurement are they measured in and how often are they measured? What does the medication do in terms of changing what was being measured? How often is the medication checked as with diabetes? What does the medication do exactly within the body - we can explain that with diabetes but what tests are done to show what impact the medication has on the body for mental health?

What area of the body is tested?

Diabetes is diagnosed with specific testing. Mental illness is diagnosed with subjective stigma. There is no test as far as I am aware. By all means explain if you are aware of some medical testing on something done for a diagnosis.

Using meds on someone for mental health is like giving insulin for someone without testing they need it.

@whippy1981 You keep banging on about "biological need" like it's some huge "gotcha". It's so weird. If you break your leg and take paracetomol, codeine or ibuprofen, you do know that none of those drugs actually CURE the leg right? They simply help to manage the symptoms.

As for mental health and neurodiversity we don't know how much is "biological" and how much is psychological, trauma etc. We DO know that in many cases the meds help to support the patient and relieve symptoms, allowing them either to address the underlying issues or to improve their quality of life.

It's fine for you not to want to take medication or to consider altneratives for any mental health issues but your rather incoherent ranting suggests you don't really know what you're talking about and it's strange that you're so upset that OP is considering meds for her dd.

As for what it does? Well, in the caes of my ADHD DS, the meds calm his brain so that he can actually focus. When he's playing basketball at home he doesn't need his meds to focus and concentrate because it's calm and quiet, but on a busy court, without his meds every other bouncing ball, every shout from a spectator, every person running past is a huge distraction and very difficult for him to manage. Which is frustrating for him because he loves basketball and is good at it. Many ADHD children will actively seek to take their meds because the chaos in their heads, which translates to chaos in their lives, is very distressing to them. smart ones especially find it frustrating. Of course, you may not consider this valid as ADHD is a "biological" condition and while it's not fully understood as yet, it's recognised as such, and, in fact, responding to meds is actually considered part of the diagnostic criteria. But we DO know the meds don't solve the problem, they simply help to manage it.

Anti depressants have a similar effect and I know most professionals want their patients to use meds in conjunction with other therapies - rather than in an attempt to just solve the problem with meds. You watch someone who has been barely able to function (and usually feeling guiltly, stressed, sad about it) suddenly start to be able to do things and engage with thei rlives and believe me, you'll be a fan of the meds too.

@whippy1981 you need to work on your comprehension skills. I said if the daughter was diabetic or had a broken bone I.e. meaning that they have been diagnosed by a medical professional, the same way a medical professional would diagnose a problem with someone's mental health. The doctors aren't just guessing at illnesses or plucking them out of thin air. Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a developmental disability caused by differences in the brain, therefore some medications are beneficial to those affected.

Actually at 15 she is definitely Gillick Competent and needs to stop minding either way and make her own decision - this isn’t an 8 year old she is I think able to make her own informed choice.

many don’t take medication many do I think here the right parental choice is to get the DD informed enough to make her own

They need support as doping and then leaving them with the cup full will do nothing and just shift it further down the line and make you feel better. Saying I know whatever is causing you trauma we shall ignore and not deal with but lets take these meds and we will continue to ignore it is pointless. Help them not dope them!

Imagine someone who has been raped and suffered such trauma and you say to them your response to rape is so problematic to us we will give you these meds and not deal with what is causing you distress. You can continue to suffer about the rape so long as in society you do not display behaviour that we deem abnormal. Then we will say it isn't the rape that is the problem it is your brain that is the problem hence why we are giving you meds to deal with your problematic brain. It is not normal to respond to rape like this. Then we will say we saved your life all the while ignoring your trauma.
Job done well there mate! Job done well!

I do not agree with calling ppl abnormal. Sorry. By all means continue that is your choice. It is not drivel to avoid stigma. You do you.

I see their responses to trauma as being purposeful and needed. I do not see them as abnormal like you do. I see them as normal
what an utter nonsense!
Someone with severe PTSD to the point of suicidal attempts, that's purposeful and needed and no need to medicate?
I know of two people that sertraline saved their lives and continues to give them
the ability to work and engage in family life, it has helped them turn their life around.
@whippy1981 you don't half drivel some shite.