State school 6th forms oversubscribed

I’m thinking your only experience is being trustee of a few private schools which is minuscule and not enough to pontificate the way you are.
There are textbooks - which parents pay for , there is negligible photocopying thanks to whiteboards,smartphones, laptops,email and iPads you can write on. In FE colleges in our area there is no sport aside from a gym pupils can pay for, there was none timetabled in the 6th form attached to a school one of my kids went….

As I told you upthread (you clearly didn’t bother to read) I’m a trustee of several schools and post-19 education charities. 🙄 There’s been very poor reading and financial comprehension on this thread, which makes me pretty sceptical about whether any of you know anything about education. As well as the claims that nobody’s photocopying anything, there are no textbooks, sixth formers don’t do any sports and additional marking for teachers is no problem at all, amongst other things.

I don’t think many of you have much of a clue how schools work. Anyway, it all sounds like you’re especially keen that teachers and staff do more work, so that’s clearly the key message!

Of course it does.

But a couple extra in each A level class doesn't increase those costs.

It's like, Hotels or something.
The fixed costs of the hotel are covered by say 60% occupancy (made up %). Any occupancy over and above that is sheer profit once the consumables have been deducted for).
Or a theme park, might cover its opening costs when it has 2000 visitors. Anything above that on a day is profit on the day.

An A level class might need 8 (or whatever) on average to cover costs. If the class can be pushed up to 12 that is net extra for the school.

I thought you worked in a university now? There is hardly any going on in universities.

It’s stupid not to realise that the pupil funding covers a proportion of non-teaching costs spread across the whole of the school. How do you think they are funded otherwise? I’m trying to get you to realise that.

I thought you worked in a university now? There is hardly any going on in universities.

It’s hilarious that you imagine schools are living in some kind of paper-free world. I don’t think you know the first thing about it!

So why didn't you say so instead on banging on about photocopying?

You don't want state 6th forms to take on more kids because it makes more work for the teachers.

That is a perfectly reasonable concern, which gets completely lost when you talk about cleaners and chairs and canteens and textbooks.

Right, so in this post is FINALLY the key thing I have been trying to get you all to acknowledge:

Teachers may have more marking to do, as may admin staff, but they probably won't be paid any more for doing it

What this whole thread is saying is: even if there is additional pressure on sixth forms from the VAT policy, you are expecting teachers and staff to suck it up and do more work to compensate.

That’s the key issue. Whatever the fine grain of funding and accounting, those on this thread who argue it won’t have an impact assume that teachers and staff will just bear the extra impact. How very left wing of you all. How redistributive. If private school kids move into state then the teachers (and the other state kids) will just pick up the stress in bigger classes and more work for them.

Did you all realise that’s what you’re arguing for? Sounds pretty Tory to me to be honest - very “do more with less”, etc. So much better than us all just paying more tax overall so that all sixth form kids can have A-level teaching in small, well-funded schools and providers. No?

And FWIW, there’s still plenty of photocopying going on in schools 😆

And FWIW, there’s still plenty of photocopying going on in schools 😆

Yes, even before that comment I was wondering when neverthelaststone last stepped into a school or university.

Increasing an A level class from 10 to 15 doesn't need more chairs or classroom space as classrooms are fitted out for 25-30 anyway.

Teachers may have more marking to do, as may admin staff, but they probably won't be paid any more for doing it.

Supply teachers, again, only if you are adding classes as opposed to increasing class size, (plus aren't A level classes often just left to get on with it if the teacher is absent?)

I don't think you get many TAs with A level students, do you?

Photocopying? Are you living in the last century?

Teachers don’t use any stationery or do any photocopying, then?

I did reply to you on this up thread!

I honestly do not know any school or college (and my kids attended a mix from private selective, private non selective/boarding, state comp and state FE college) that provides stationery for 6th formers.

Of course this changes, because the work per student head increases. The admin staff have to process more work. The teachers have to do more marking. The school spends more money on many of its resources. It needs more classroom space, more chairs, more loo paper, more practical time, more teaching assistants, more time for pastoral matters, more supply teachers, more stationery (yes many schools do still provide this, and textbooks).

Your post seems to just assume you can increase teachers’ workload because they have “spare capacity” 😆 Ask a teacher - well, anyone really - do they want to do more work for the same pay? More marking, prep, etc. for the same timetabled lessons? And ask them if adding a bunch more kids per class will have no effect on the quality of their work? What answer do you expect to get? Do pupils and their parents favour schools who offer larger class sizes at A-level or smaller ones? Why? Are there lots of kids clamouring to be taught in A-level classes of 30? Why not?

@noblegiraffe you still haven’t said how many extra pupils per class you’d be happy to take in with no timetabling offset for marking time. Are you happy to mark five or ten more students’ work in the same time you already allocate for existing marking? Will adding more students to a class increase or decrease the quality of your teaching? Will you be giving each student the same amount of individual time? (A-level maths is hard, and many students struggle. Do they just get less time and attention each if there’s more in the class? Is that what you and they want?)

Would your colleagues in English, Psychology or Biology be keen to add more marking to their workload with no offset or extra staff?