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AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

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Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 17:55

Cheaper and less assertive?

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OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 17:49

It's important to consider all this from a patient's perspective too. It's too much of a risk to patients to have staff who have just turned up in the UK, not used to the pace and still trying to find their feet, taking important decisions on diagnosis and treatment/ management of conditions. Patients are not guinea pigs for newcomers to practise on.

It's only right that if we have enough UK graduates and IMGs who are already working in NHS hospitals that they should be prioritised for posts ahead of new overseas recruits for the limited number of spaces available.

Bringing more and more IMGs over is madness if we already have enough doctors ready and trained here without posts. Given this and how busy hospitals are these days and the very long waiting lists, why waste time of busy NHS staff on supporting new recruits on learning about the ways of the NHS, etc. Surely, bring them in only if there are spaces left after allocating posts to the doctors already working here.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 16:48

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OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 15:56

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 15:13

My understanding is that there is already a problem. F1 posts are now allocated randomly, although applicants can be given a preference. The numbers include quite a lot of IMGs. In the past IMGs were used to fill gaps. The former head of a Penang medical school me they could normally place their grads anywhere but London. DDs deanery had a number of IMGs and indeed several who did not show up, which caused havoc with the rota.

Now the cohort of F1s includes IMGs, and the total number is higher than the number of spaces. IMGs have equal chances of getting the most popular deaderies (London, Severn) and absolutely top of the year applicants who formerly would have had top choice of both deanery and rotations are winding up in newly created "tbc" jobs or very stretched hospitals in Enniskillen or Middlesborough. This very much affects their chances of time to study or opportunity for research, and hence scope to succeed in the very competitive speciality training selection.

F1 work loads seem to vary a lot between Deaneries. Some hospitals really rely on F1s and F2s to keep things going.

There has to be a reinstatement of the RLMT or something similar to sort this mess out. With IMG numbers doubling over the last few years and with the ever increasing numbers of medical colleges in their home countries and a lack of investment in postgraduate training in their home countries, more and more IMGs would perceive the UK as a natural choice unless the UK prioritises its own graduates and existing IMGs.

In addition to the reinstatement of the RLMT, there has to an urgent review of the current NHS recruitment system.

As a member of the public, it may be reasonable to assume that the current NHS recruitment system is not being monitored or reviewed regularly to ensure that it's fit for purpose. Hopefully this purpose is the employment and training of UK graduates and existing IMGs.

It is also worrying to see that there may be many NHS staff, involved in recruitment and policy making, who are also occupying key positions in companies employing from overseas. It seems then more lucrative to them to employ from overseas than give young people already in the UK a chance.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 15:36

As ever, money wins. I work hard on WP with many Universities and we have successfully managed to increase the number of under privileged youngsters getting into medicine. Notably at the London Unis near my school.

But I'm not sure why we bothered. These are the young doctors most disadvantaged by the system. Can't afford to attend expensive conferences and courses, don't have parents with contacts, can't just move every few years (it costs money to move !).
Again, why are we paying to train them if we won't employ them. May as well scrap all Medical schools and just recruit from abroad 🤷‍♀️

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 15:31

Auchencar · 17/02/2025 15:11

I haven't looked other than London Needmoresleep/ mumsneedwine.

Jobs will come through properly once the interview results are out.

Needmoresleep next steps in London, then returning to the difficult to recruit in area where your DD currently is would create a very strong profile for a consultant's post there. It's a good plan.

Edited

Yes but wasn't it you who on the last thread who was going on about racism, xenophobia and white middle class privilege.(Or was it the other poster who was similarly down on our lazy and useless DC.)

Yes mine does have the networks etc, and somewhere she can live with a view of a major teaching hospital as well as a reasonable CV. But what of the equally good F2s she is working with who picked up sufficient points to also get their first pick of rotations within their deanery and should be the consultants of the future. Nowhere to stay in London, many will only have visited once or twice, and no networks who can put in a good word with consultants.

Issues with recruitment are across the UK. Are you not concerned that outside London the pathways are blocked with bottlenecks caused by overseas recruitment, the use of PAs and by budget cuts.

Is it OK to restrict career paths to those who do have that white middle class privilege? (Or indeed international middle class privilege. My Asian friends who plan to send their kids to the UK for training are far wealthier than I am, and absolutely have the money and the pull to ensure that their kids can submit near perfect applications.)

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mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 15:13

@Auchencar do you applied ? As I said, several applicants have sent CV to similar ads only to be told job closed already.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 15:13

OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 14:52

Not sure how the NHS is balancing the training of UK foundation doctors with schemes like this? It would be great to get clarity on how much of the NHS budget is allocated to this?

https://bapiotrainingacademy.com/foundation-programme/

These placements seem to give an unfair advantage to overseas medical graduates. Also what advantages does it give when applying for further posts within the NHS?

If like you say places on " foundation" are guaranteed, how long before schemes like the one above, pose issues that are detrimental to UK based graduates hoping to start the foundation years? In fact, abolishing the RLMT and with the current points based immigration system, there is a possibility that F1 & F2 are no longer as well protected if demand for posts outstrips the number of posts available.

My understanding is that there is already a problem. F1 posts are now allocated randomly, although applicants can be given a preference. The numbers include quite a lot of IMGs. In the past IMGs were used to fill gaps. The former head of a Penang medical school me they could normally place their grads anywhere but London. DDs deanery had a number of IMGs and indeed several who did not show up, which caused havoc with the rota.

Now the cohort of F1s includes IMGs, and the total number is higher than the number of spaces. IMGs have equal chances of getting the most popular deaderies (London, Severn) and absolutely top of the year applicants who formerly would have had top choice of both deanery and rotations are winding up in newly created "tbc" jobs or very stretched hospitals in Enniskillen or Middlesborough. This very much affects their chances of time to study or opportunity for research, and hence scope to succeed in the very competitive speciality training selection.

F1 work loads seem to vary a lot between Deaneries. Some hospitals really rely on F1s and F2s to keep things going.

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Auchencar · 17/02/2025 15:12

mumsneedwine I checked the dates. They're currently open.

Auchencar · 17/02/2025 15:11

I haven't looked other than London Needmoresleep/ mumsneedwine.

Jobs will come through properly once the interview results are out.

Needmoresleep next steps in London, then returning to the difficult to recruit in area where your DD currently is would create a very strong profile for a consultant's post there. It's a good plan.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 15:11

Oh and just because they are still on website does not mean they are still open. I know several applicants have applied only to be told the job closed days ago - still on the er site though.

Why would anyone make this up ? Nurses can't get jobs. Physios, even paramedics. We have unemployed GPs driving Ubers. And F2 doctors are struggling to get into training or get an F3 type role. Really wish none of this was true.

And although a job is guaranteed for F1, there were many students who had nothing on the day jobs were allocated (1,000 of them). Some only found out where they were going 3 weeks before they started work. And these were made up jobs that have no OOH and so basic pay and limited chance to gain experience.

Nothing to do with how good you are. Totally random selection, sending people all over the country away from family and support systems.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 15:04

@Auchencar so 6-10 jobs ? For the whole of England ? Many of those are also available for now for 6 months only.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 15:01

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OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 14:52

Boope · 17/02/2025 13:33

It's not the newly trained doctors that have a problem. Those are guaranteed 2 years work called "foundation".
It's when that finishes there's a lack of jobs. These are the ones leaving the UK in droves instead of being able to consolidate their training and progress to being the specialists of the future.

Not sure how the NHS is balancing the training of UK foundation doctors with schemes like this? It would be great to get clarity on how much of the NHS budget is allocated to this?

https://bapiotrainingacademy.com/foundation-programme/

These placements seem to give an unfair advantage to overseas medical graduates. Also what advantages does it give when applying for further posts within the NHS?

If like you say places on " foundation" are guaranteed, how long before schemes like the one above, pose issues that are detrimental to UK based graduates hoping to start the foundation years? In fact, abolishing the RLMT and with the current points based immigration system, there is a possibility that F1 & F2 are no longer as well protected if demand for posts outstrips the number of posts available.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 14:47

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Auchencar · 17/02/2025 14:46

Junior Clinical Fellow jobs on the NHS Jobs website. A random check in the London area throws up: ITU at Kings, Paeds at Woolwich, Paediatric Surgery at GOSH, General Surgery in Barking, ENT at UCLH, several teaching jobs. They're all still open (obviously) and that's just at a glance and certainly not an exhaustive list. This is just a trickle of course, because most jobs will be posted once the interview round is done.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 14:39

@Auchencar there is no money. This year there is no money to make jobs, even for the most stand out candidates. The money is not there.

I never know why there has to be an insulting comment insinuating you don't get a job these days because you're not v good.

Auchencar · 17/02/2025 14:16

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 13:27

@Auchencar not that easy anymore unfortunately. Some can make jobs but there's just no funding this year for majority.

It's the approach good F2s can take to maximise their chances of a clinical fellowship and it certainly is still worth doing. If there's a job going to be offered, this is still the tactical approach to bagging it. Of course it won't work for F2s who aren't particularly stand out.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 14:13

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OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 13:47

catlovingdoctor · 17/02/2025 12:36

True, there are issues surrounding it relating to communication and differences in systems. Perhaps not qualified but very experienced; I.e. someone of consultant grade abroad now in a registrar/ trainee grade here, essentially left to their own devices because the consultants trust them while also not having to devote time to do any training.

That's unfair on UK medical graduates. Those consultants that you mentioned should be taking time to train their juniors instead of recruiting trained staff. If it's not happening then it should be happening.

There are possibly risks with employing newcomers from abroad who have not had any experience working in the NHS. Not sure patients would be happy seeing incompetent IMGs (as discussed in this thread) who after being employed by the NHS have been found to be clueless. As it turned out, some of these examples lacked medical knowledge and procedures and some appeared to have put in fraudulent applications

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1by1cw7/comment/kyhln1x/

Press + to expand for detail.

Given the issues faced by our UK medical graduates, it's time to prioritise UK based medical graduates and IMGs already here, ahead of newcomers still outside the UK.

Also pause the PLAB exams. There's twice as many passing PLAB 2 in 2024 compared to 2021 which possibly means there are now twice as many applicants to the UK. This is unsustainable if the numbers of posts aren't also increased.

The PLAB exams which are a prerequisite for applicants (apart from those who are exempt) are also not as rigourous as the exams UK graduates have to sit. Surely it makes sense to have everyone sit the same exams if they want a licence to work in the UK.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 13:38

Worth remembering that more of these entry level jobs have been lost to PAs and budget cuts.

I don't blame the consultants. The system, including the exemptions and incentives, allows them to hire consultant level people for entry level jobs. Indeed the scoring system probably encourages them to do this. World wide recruitment allows the NHS to hire good people on low salaries which in a busy department has to be tempting. And given some of these jobs will be short term contracts that need renewing, you can guarantee that staff will keep their heads down and not complain.

There will be senior NHS managers walking around with grand titles saying "workforce planning". I hope it is clear now to @Vettrianofan and others that there is a bottleneck. That the our F2s cannot compete for these entry level jobs. Which means that in five or ten years time when you want to fill other, more skilled jobs, they won't be around. The work force planners are the ones who should be talking to F2s about perceived blockages. They are the ones who should be ringfencing jobs for them to move into. Instead, perhaps, they are sunning themselves in a tropical hotel which on an overseas recruitment trip.

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Boope · 17/02/2025 13:33

EasternStandard · 16/02/2025 16:26

I think it's bad as you say but up until recently I thought the general position on here was we were not training enough

Otherwise yanbu

It's not the newly trained doctors that have a problem. Those are guaranteed 2 years work called "foundation".
It's when that finishes there's a lack of jobs. These are the ones leaving the UK in droves instead of being able to consolidate their training and progress to being the specialists of the future.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 13:27

@Auchencar not that easy anymore unfortunately. Some can make jobs but there's just no funding this year for majority.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 13:26

@catlovingdoctor and it's disgusting that it's happening. Consultants are paid to train resident focused but few are too lazy. Ladder pulling at its finest.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 13:21

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 10:03

@Vettrianofan there is currently 1 clinical fellow job on NHS Scotland website. That's the only job open to F2s.

Not only the only vacancy for our F2s, but also for some of the oversupply of medical school graduates overseas also keen to get their first foot on the ladder, and also well, qualified experienced doctors who see a chance of they and their families moving to the UK. So the job should be attracting lots of applicants.

@Auchencar This happened to one of the DC. Was it @Haffdonga ? Their son knew of a suitable vacancy coming up and so was ready to apply when it opened. Within a day there were so many applicants that the recruitment was abandoned and the Trust was going to have a rethink before re-advertising. Yes consultants will know F2s who they would be very happy to see appointed, and the odds will be good should they get to interview. But how to you get to interview? DD is aware of two jobs coming up in her deanery who might suit. She too could put in an application but again, she will be competing against a lot of other F2s she knows and in all likelihood someone from overseas, or perhaps with better contacts, will get it.

(Those following the Fife NHS Employment Tribunal might enjoy the fact that the F2 doctor has parents who well known and influential locally - the mother works for the NHS, the step father is a Bishop - managed to do all their rotations in the same hospital, which is apparently unusual, and then were able to move seamlessly to a Clinical Fellow post. Despite some controversy going on in the background.)

Applications are supposed to be anonymised and the selection made by using accepted criteria. No credit is given for strong previous performance appraisals within the NHS. Once applications number are in their hundreds it is almost certain there will be applicants who, at least on paper, will look better. It is clear from Google that there is an effective industry designed to help those overseas present the best possible application. Ours don't even get basic careers advice.

One phenomenon is doctors' friends starting looking a bit sheepish. Yes the situation is tough. However their DC, perfectly competent and personable but not obvious world beaters, managed to get an F3 in a very sought after area and this has led to a training place. I am getting a bit of this when I explain what is happening to DD. Doctor friends know she is bright, resilient, hardworking, capable and sporty. The sort of F2/F3 they would be happy to have on their ward and who they would trust. They can see it would be mad for the NHS to lose her. Without me asking three of them have offered to make some phone calls to see if something can be found.

DD would be opposed in that she is idealistic enough to believe that both she and her close friend (working class, first in her family to go to University and very much from the wrong side of the tracks) should be able to make it on merit. Unfortu neither believe that they can, so are busy filling out applications for Australia. (So much easier. One agency application. State your preferences, list your CV, and go.)

I sort of understand what is going on. A trust inundated with applications, with no way of checking whether that astonishing research listed on an application represents genuine academic talent or a parent with good contacts or the money to pay, will recognise that even if you play by current rules you don't necessarily get the right person. And you need someone who can start contributing to a busy department from Day 1. The system does not allow you to prioritise those already in the UK. A phone call from a trusted colleague talking about either their own child who is making good progress through the system, or about an F2 that has been particularly impressive, starts to become the safest choice.

So much for widening access. Access has been widened so much that the ones we wanted to help are falling through the cracks.

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