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AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Auchencar · 18/02/2025 09:14

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:09

@Auchencar I didn't say 2 years ago ? Where did you read that. He's having a coffee opposite me at the moment - believes he might know your DC !!! He's off to New Zealand as fed up of applying for jobs that have already closed. He agrees it must be because he's lazy and thick 😂.

Confused

By great coincidence my own DS has been with me for a week - leaves today. But here as the interview offers for anaesthetics were sent out.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:11

@oddandelsewhere you're missing the point. No one is asking to employ more doctors, just preference the ones we've already paid to train

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 09:10

With respect Needmoresleep I think no-one other than mumsneedwine has used the term lazy. Lazy is very different from not being sufficiently pro-active.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:09

@Auchencar I didn't say 2 years ago ? Where did you read that. He's having a coffee opposite me at the moment - believes he might know your DC !!! He's off to New Zealand as fed up of applying for jobs that have already closed. He agrees it must be because he's lazy and thick 😂.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:07

@oddandelsewhere what do you meant by less qualified ? All UK doctors have the same qualifications and training ?

oddandelsewhere · 18/02/2025 09:06

@mumsneedwine I think the problem is the fact that doctors are paid for by the taxpayer. Most taxpayers do not want to pay more tax, and indeed cannot afford to do so. The Dept. Of Health saying they intend to employ thousands more doctors may be a laudable aim but it is not one they can afford to carry out.
You still seem to be implying that we should employ every British medical school graduate even if they are less well qualified than overseas doctors, I don't think that would improve the quality of the care available, only the quantity.
You might be able to achieve your aim by the way you vote in the next election.

Needmoresleep · 18/02/2025 09:05

Good to have the articles but I worry a little about the focus on training places.

Access to training and the arms race in terms of points required is one issue.

Potential unemployment is another. Because of the sharp rise in applicants, an awful lot of F2s did not get through the exams needed to be considered for training places. They need jobs. It has always been common for newly qualified doctors to have to apply more than once.

Then there are others. Those who decided to take an F3 in order to prepare an application. Those who don't want to climb the consultant pyramid who in the past worked in jobs now given to PAs. Those, perhaps recruited from overseas who are coming to the end of a fixed term contract.

I don't really follow the argument that we are training more doctors than we have jobs for, when we are clearly recruiting large numbers from overseas. The problems seem to be:

  • there is no resident priority for those jobs where there are already sufficient good quality applicants in the UK.
  • we lack the pathways that enable newly qualified doctors and those already in the UK to acquire the skills in areas where we have a shortage.

I note the reference to burn out. Some of our "friends" keep using the word "lazy" for those who have not made it through the tough competition. From what I have observed some that do are at real risk of burn out or of waking up one morning and deciding that it is not worth it.

I also wonder about the different loading of F1/F2 jobs. There seems to be a huge variation between deaneries and then different contracts in the different nations that make up the UK. One consultant on here suggested that their F1s don't do nights. That is certainly not the case elsewhere, nor is that case that contracts or pay are uniform. F1/F2 posts are now allocated. In the past you could decide. Take a heavily loaded F1/F2, gain lots of experience and then an F3. Or to look for more lightly loaded rotations in deaneries that, say, did not require nights and prepare your training application during F2. No choice now. The allocation affects the hours you work, your shift pattern, the responsibility and experience you get, and your pay. Something seems wrong. .

OP posts:
Auchencar · 18/02/2025 09:05

Posts are crossed because I failed to quote.

mumsneedwine so the person who was top of the year overall at Cambridge two years ago has just failed to get an anaesthetics interview? Interesting.

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 09:02

That was in response to this by mumsneedwine:

how you take away from this that it's the F2s being too lazy is beyond me. Lots have asked about jobs and lots of consultants have tried to make them one, like in previous years. But this year the answer is no. Because the NHS would rather hire non doctors

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:02

Ah those 'brightest and driven'. So doctors not getting into jobs this year are thick and lazy. How sweet some people are. And ignorant.

Nothing to do with brightest or best - top of their year at Cambs a few years ago ? Not got into anaesthetics as score not high enough. Or IMT because having 2 published papers, being on several committees and part of teaching group did not gain enough portfolio points. I'll make sure to tell them they are just a bit thick and lazy.

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 08:56

What is your evidence for 'lots'?

I did not use the term 'lazy'. You've introduced that term all by yourself. It does sound as though some of these young people need to be more pro-active though and to stop complaining about being too overwhelmed with work that their ability to compete is compromised.

I do strongly agree that the brightest and most driven have always been the ones to make it to the top which is why the die is probably cast early on and expanding medical school places to take in additional but less able applicants is a pretty flawed idea.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 08:54

@oddandelsewhere oh and lawyers are not paid for by the taxpayer.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 08:54

@oddandelsewhere as can clearly be seen, we gave approx 12,000 UK graduates for approx. 12,000 training places. It's almost like that was the idea !

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 08:52

@oddandelsewhere read it more carefully. Along with these. It's v v simple. You train doctors to employ them.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
oddandelsewhere · 18/02/2025 08:25

As far as I can see neither the FT article nor the Yahoo one blames foreign trained doctors for the current situation, that seems to be a problem for the very invested mothers on this site.
The problem seems to be that we have more medical graduates than there are jobs for, rather like law. No one as far as I know bemoans the waste of the cost of educating lawyers who then fail to find a job in law.
Perhaps we need to stop expanding medical school places until we can actually afford to employ more doctors, and explain to junior doctors that the employment structure in medicine has always been pyramidical, with far more at the bottom than the top. The pyramid may be steeper at the moment, but it always was the brightest and most driven who made it to the top.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 08:11

Well well well. Maybe it's not 'just' us mums - maybe there are people who understand facts

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
OneMorePiece · 18/02/2025 08:06

For non-believers

uk.news.yahoo.com/competition-training-roles-putting-immense-000100209.html

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 07:55

@OneMorePiece I assume the FT is racist too 😁

Needmoresleep · 18/02/2025 07:55

The archive link to today's FT article.

https://archive.ph/8B3qt

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 07:54

@oddandelsewhere really ? Calling me a racist is pretty pathetic. But again, when you can't debate the facts, you just become abusive. Usually a sign you are losing the argument.

And yes, some UK trained doctors (many of whom are foreigners) get some jobs. But many don't. Because the influx from abroad is now a tidal wave. Or can't you understand simple graphs (see I can do it too). Why invest in training doctors if we are only going go employ more from abroad ?

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Needmoresleep · 18/02/2025 07:37

oddandelsewhere · 18/02/2025 06:16

Oh for goodness sake @Needmoresleep no one is suggesting that these adults should 'just know how the system works ' or 'how scoring and selection work'. I for one would hope that someone proposing to be a doctor would have the gumption to find these things out. I also would expect an adult who wants a job to be applying for , you know, actual jobs rather than throwing their hands up and complaining that there isn't a pile of job offers for them with no effort on their part. Her social life needs to take a back seat while she finds herself a job, if indeed she is capable of actually progressing in her chosen profession.

Presumably all these dear children looking for work are in their mid twenties? They might have more initiative if their mothers stepped back and expected them to get on with their own lives, including doing what it takes to find employment for themselves or realising that they are not cut out for the amount of effort they have to put in themselves.

How easy it would be if only you could do their applications for them (In their home town of course!)

Maybe. When I was returning to work after a long spell in a previous job then a career break I found the recruitment culture had changed. Things like scoring against core competencies. I paid a consultant to help me with my CV to help ensure that it would have maximum effect and to suggest future career avenues. (My previous career had involved a lot of travelling, not something I wanted to do with young children.) It was money well spent.

They may be in their mid 20s but they have never applied for jobs. It is absolutely normal for University careers offices to support job search skills for their soon to be graduates. But medics don't get this help. They go off to guaranteed but allocated Foundations Years.

Then suddenly they are expected to apply for jobs against world wide competition. No priority or protection. Overseas applicants will often be motivated by the chance to bring their families to the UK and may well invest in the sort of application help whose advertisements are linked on the thread. Or have the support of recruitment agencies.

This is not a level playing field.

But yes, lets blame our young doctors for not having innate professional job search skills or for lacking in "gumption".

Ultimately the NHS needs to decide. Does it want to retain staff or not.

Aggressively recruiting overseas is exposing doctors (and nurses etc) already in the country to extraordinary levels of competition, at least when it comes to ordinary entry-level jobs. If they are content with this, so be it, but what an extraordinary waste of money.

If they are not, they need to talk to current staff including F2s, and find out why they feel they have to leave. The lack of a level playing field may be one. Current criteria where experience scores, yet it is known that newly qualified doctors, nurses, physios etc, need those jobs in order to gain experience might be another. Exemptions might be another.

OP posts:
oddandelsewhere · 18/02/2025 07:02

@marmaladeandpeanutbutter I'm not sure that doctors 'from other nations ' are being prioritised, it's doctors who have done research and gone above and beyond just turning up. It's also presumably doctors who actually applied for their jobs.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 18/02/2025 06:47

What a silly remark. We are , as a nation, subsidising the training of our own doctors. Let alone the cost to their parents. Why prioritise employment of doctors from other nations?

oddandelsewhere · 18/02/2025 06:42

@mumsneedwine the fact is some GB trained doctors are still finding employment, I expect they are the more pro active ones.
It isn't actually rude to point out facts, you just don't like them. (Or foreigners, it seems)

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