Private schools extra holidays - how does this not harm outcomes

@Labraradabrador

I do think it’s ultimately about happiness. So if a child is happier in private then of course it’s the right choice.
Both schools I’ve worked in have excellent facilities and offer lots of extra curricular opportunities.

About placing too much emphasis on testing…I think teaching was easier 20 years or so ago. I think - particularly in the early years - it has become quite chaotic.

And when I did SATS in state, I honestly can’t remember any distressed children. In fact they seemed to enjoy it.
But then over the years, teachers/parents have questioned it. I don’t know. Are we moving forward in the right direction with our education system?? I’m not sure we are. To me, moving away from a lack of focus, planning, assessment, structure is part of the reason.

@TwentySecondsLeft when tests become the outcome rather than a tool in education it is a problem for me. Some level of standardised testing has a role in education, but I think we must be careful not to centralise it, especially with younger children. We can only test measurable things, but not everything that is important is readily measurable via standardised testing, and with the way SATs are conducted and elevated I see many schools losing sight of the bigger picture.

Doing rounds and rounds of practice papers may not be traumatising, but it is really fucking boring. We didn’t make it far in the state sector, but local schools seem to spend all of y6 on SATs, which sounds like a colossal waste of time for most students. I saw a milder version when in our first parent meeting for reception when teacher wanted to discuss concerns about dc tracking for y2 SATs, and found out the plan was to pull dc into extra support groups to help ensure their readiness for the phonics screener and then SATs, meaning they would miss forest school and art and other fun activities so they could drill phonics. Thank god we moved to private where dc could learn at their own pace, which at different times has been faster or slower than the national curriculum might dictate, while maintaining a positive association with learning and an independent curiosity.

@Labraradabrador

In state, I joined a school on special measures and I think SATS really helped focus the school. Yes we did lots of practice papers etc, but there was a concerted effort and a method of measuring progress against other schools in the area. This was a school in a deprived area - the children weren’t traumatised by SATS. They ended up being the top school for reading in the area.

I would imagine most private schools are doing the same exams as state at senior levels, because universities recognise that standardised exam.

The private school I worked at did SATS and was financially stable. There was a change in head, numbers were falling with an empty classroom which they covered by opening up to a younger age. It seems as they got more worried about numbers, the SATS stopped, their own methods came in, the ‘we don’t publish data’ ethos and they stopped being selective. So ok - perhaps it does help pupils, but perhaps there are also other reasons?

@TwentySecondsLeft i intentionally chose a school that doesn’t do SATS - I don’t like the way it shapes the educational experience, with so much time and energy going into test prep. Our school does assessments 2x a year to track pupil learning at an individual and class level to identify any gaps or support areas, but it isn’t shared with parents unless you specifically ask. Not publishing the data takes the pressure off the teachers and the students and allows everyone to focus on what really matters, which is individual student achievement. At the end of the day, where a school falls in the league tables says nothing about how my individual child will be supported.

@yellowpetals

I agree, I think it’s the business aspect that makes it a bit ‘smokescreen’-y. I couldn’t find the data on uk.gov - not for GCSE’s.
The independent school award was TES, but why are they giving an award to a school that is borrowing millions from the LA which they can’t repay? They must have known - at the time it was given - that the school was having issues.

The cynic in me would say the award is given to generate more business for that school.

A private school I worked at 20 years ago did do SATS. I remember the papers arriving and being unwrapped. I wasn’t working in that Year group, but I can remember raising my eyebrows at how it was administered - compared to the state school I’d just come from.

I also remember a parent with a results list, asking where our school was. It did include some private schools in the area. I asked the head and was told ‘we don’t publish’.

So some schools were at that time, but I don’t think this happens now. And they moved away from doing SATS to their own exam.

I think the shocking/suspicious thing to me - is how much happens to support business. And that business decisions often compromise moral decisions. E.g. no planning or activities for the outdoor area unless there is an inspection or open day event.

@TwentySecondsLeft - that list looks questionable to me - some schools that are frequently in the top 10 or 20 are missing from it.

I would beware getting stats from companies that might have a commercial interest/hidden agenda (this list is from is a tutoring company) and either look at the uk.gov site or possibly newspaper rankings - eg Sunday Times list.

Actually, 33 days is 6.5 weeks of school. So they have nearly 40 weeks of equivalent time in school as the local state school, if my maths is correct
or just over 12 weeks of holidays.

Nowadays, most apply to both, or certainly we did as did those I know. We applied to both Alleyn’s and JAGS and then Alleyn’s and DC. Got places at both and then decided. Alleyns and JAGS are directly opposite each other so you can’t use commuting as a way to decide either.

Back to OP’s question, these schools have 19 weeks of holidays!
The infant/junior/senior pupils are in school by 8.20ish and finish around 3.30/3.45 so the clubs running until 5.15pm latest (earlier for the younger pupils).

When I used to do the school run I would see the Charter pupils walking to school after the youngest JAGS/Alleyn’s pupils had gone in and at the end of the day the Charter Pupils were at the bus stop around 3pm whilst the JAGS/Alleyn’s pupils were still in lessons.

It probably equates to an extra hour per day in the classroom,
so extra 5h per week i.e a whole school day extra per week-

with 33 weeks of school/year that is an extra month of schooling without the added faff/time lost of getting pupils settled in the classroom etc.

It’s also the case that marking is becoming less common now. Many schools marketing themselves as non-marking schools. As an English teacher it is one of my most time consuming activities but also the one that gives me real insight into students’ progress.

For GSCE/A Level:

www.ivyeducation.co.uk/insights/best-private-schools-in-uk

@LondonLawyer - oh, absolutely. It was more a point about how what’s ’best’ is defined. Obviously there might be some debate about whether, say, Cambridge or UCL is better according to who is defining that - but I didn’t mean that Cambridge and Hull would also be classified the same 😂

The private school that borrowed millions of pounds from Woking Borough Council has approached the bankrupt authority to say it does “not currently have funds” to fully repay its debt. Greenfield School in Old Woking was given loans totalling £13.3million by the council with £2.4m of these due to mature later this month.

Yes but it doesn't really tell you how high the pass mark is - my child is bright so generally scores highly but I realise that the margins can be quite tight

Have a look at their sample 11+ exams? That gives you a least a vague idea of what they are looking for.

Most people I know seem to deliberately target one preferred school and tutor and prepare for that exam but to apply for a few more in case they don't get in - often deliberately choosing one less academic as an insurance

I am thinking of private school for secondary and trying to figure out what the odds actually are which is quite tricky because all independent schools want to appear in demand

It's very different to when I went to private school 20 years ago

It might very well vary - as I said, those of DS2's mates applying are doing 1 or at the most 2.
Things also change over time - people I know who went to the Dulwich cluster schools rarely applied to JAGS and Alleyn's, or the College and Alleyn's. Girls tended to apply to JAGS and one of Blackheath / Syndenham / Croydon / Putney Highs. That was 1990s. But Alleyn's was then significantly less academic than the College, and miles below JAGS, and I think they are now more equal.

I am also in London and most people I know apply to at least 3-4 independent secondaries, often plus grammar. Maybe it's just my circle?

Because a lot of private schools are clustered - e.g around Dulwich but also other clusters

There isn't universal agreement @yellowpetals about which universities are the absolute best for law, but there is a pretty definite view in my part of the legal sector about whether a uni is a "good" one for law or not. I'm on a recruitment committee, and "which university" is taken pretty seriously. We don't make much of a difference between (say) UCL, Cambridge, Durham or Bristol, but we definitely don't take Westminster, Hull or Brighton as being nearly as good.

SATS? As far as I'm aware, private schools don't publish any of those because they don't do them. No private school I'm aware of does SATS at all. It's a state thing. As DS1's comprehensive the private primary children all had to do a separate standardised test to place them in bands, because they didn't have SATS from any of their primaries.

My son's primary also does this - one class for Years 1/2, one for 3/4 and one for 5/6 (which he's currently in) and it works well for the children there. But it can mean you get spat out of the primary school system a year early - one of my sisters and I both did 11+ aged 9 and left primary just turned 10, and went to secondary then. My sister's younger in the year than I am, so she did her A level exams aged 16, and turned 17 just after she finished. That meant she couldn't go to uni then, because they weren't interested in under 18s.

Quality of teaching is better.

I've worked in a state school and frankly little teaching and learning go on the week before term ends. So that's three weeks that might be better spent at home (although I realise childcare is an issue).

Generally, as far as I know, children don't apply to half a dozen in London - partly because some will be too far away, but also because it's not a standard exam. St Paul's Girls' 11+ and City of London Girls, for example, are rather different. My siblings and I did two each, but that's 25-35 years ago, in London.

My younger son is ten years old, at a private London primary, and of those children who are doing an 11+ for an independent school almost all are only doing one, a couple are doing two. That might not be typical, but is my experience. His primary specifically advises against multiple 11+ applications.

The answer is very simple. Private schools can easily remove disruptive children. State schools can’t. Classroom disruption is what sinks children in state school’s chances of a good education.

@TwentySecondsLeft - but I'm sure you COULD find the data if you dug around a bit. League tables comparing results are really straightforward to access (though one single table comparing every single school in the UK would be enormous - breaking down by region might be better). Not so sure about the earlier years outcomes - again the measurements won't mean much across state versus private because the initial demographics are going to be different.

The council funding a private school point sounds really odd (why would a local council fund a private school?). Re awards like 'prep school of the year' - they also mean very little and can be totally dependent on who is giving the award 😂 My eldest is about to go off to uni in the autumn, and we were told not to get too caught up in rankings of what university is 'best', for example - they all measure differently. What's number one for a law degree in the Times will be different to the Guardian and the 'world rankings' also...

@Eranie You've answered your own initial question.
The one with the most holidays caps class sizes at 16 and guarantees a TA present at all times in infants and over 50% of the time in juniors.

• smaller, capped class size
• TA support = More adults to help less children so gives them more focused, individual support with their learning.