To think we overthink parenting these days??

I also had a mix of children. Two didn't listen to anything I said, one was very sensitive, and two were a mixture of the two, being reasonably biddable but also given to disobedience. So I couldn't use 'gentle parenting' (which would have suited one of them, but the others would just have laughed) and I couldn't be totally authoritarian (because the sensitive one would have cried continuously for her entire childhood). Sometimes I had to bellow and sometimes I could be more careful, but sitting carefully explaining where they went wrong and what I expected would not have cut ANY ice with two of them!

@Vroomfondleswaistcoat

Exactly: why does it need to be all or nothing? There’s a place for shouting sometimes and a place for hard boundaries. There’s also a place for calm and rational discussion.

I think a lot of splitting goes on with parenting styles: gentle parenting is either the only right way or completely shit parenting; occasionally shouting at your kids is either actively encouraged or horribly abusive. This is then compounded by the social circles you move in. It really does become an echo chamber.

The reality is probably somewhere in the middle and different children respond to various approaches differently. One of my children is really sensitive and highly strung, the other is much more laid back.

I think possibly the key word is 'sometimes' rather than 'never'.

Sometimes you need to shout. Sometimes you DO need to treat them as though you're in the army. Sometimes you really do have to lose your shit and behave like a madwoman just to get their attention. But sometimes you can sit and have a discussion about why this and that aren't appropriate.

It's the current trend for 'never' - shouting, ordering your kids to do something, forcing them to do something they don't want to that is the problem as i see it. If kids are never given a real dressing down (when appropriate, obviously), then they don't learn that they can be told off and yet still loved. Any kind of negative emotion is world-ending for them. If they can shrug and say 'yeah, ok, maybe I should help clear the table', then it's a valuable lesson.

All-day shouting, yelling and ordering about is a problem.

No it was fine, no pain at all!

I always remember someone saying on mumsnet that you're raising adults and that's always stuck with me.
Raise them to be good functioning adults who are engaged with the family, society and world they live in.

What, on your nipples? Did it not hurt to pull them off again? 😬

(I mean, otherwise it's a genius idea)

I was 42 when my DD was born so had plenty of time to observe friends of my own age doing things that seemed to me sensible and others that appeared ludicrous. Sensible things involved boundaries and clarity - the parents having confidence in their own authority - and the ludicrous ones fuzziness and parental faffing about. A friend in Italy talked to me about Bruno Battelheim and the parent imagining they are the child so they can be sensitive to the needs of the child. With those foundation stones in place, everything else follows.

Unfortunately, a family very close to me practised the second kind of parenting with their two sons. The parents separated and the mother died unexpectedly and suddenly, leaving the father to take back an 11-year old and a nine-year old who had never been taught to heed what any adult said to them. The three of them had a very difficult 10 years. Both boys are now grown up. The elder has two small daughters and chaos reigns, sadly, as it did for him - no routine, weary parents, both parents needed to feed a two-year old, each parent sleeping with a different child, all outings a major performance. The younger will become a father in a few weeks. I have my fingers crossed that he will have observed his brother and taken heed.

It's hard not to conclude that something is going seriously wrong in lots of households with poor behaviour so widespread in so many schools. Perhaps Mumsnet should diversify and offer parenting classes.

There’s never any nuance though. If you were balling at your children day in day out it is obviously unacceptable. If you’ve been pushed to the brink and raise your voice once a month to ask DC to put their coat on, you’re Rose West according to MN.

I agree OP. It really isn't that hard (if no additional needs) children need boundaries to feel safe. They need parents to parent. They also need to be listened to. Children have opinions and feelings too.

@JustMarriedBecca

Of course: sometimes you just have to lay down the law and there isn't time for a long debate about something, I completely get that.

But the whole argument from people who are furious about "gentle parenting" seems to be that its wrong to have any discussion or dialogue with your kids: you just have to tell them what to do and that's the end of it. I just don't think endlessly barking orders and expecting them to be followed without any questioning or pushback is realistic or healthy. Parenting isn't the army.

There's a middle way between a 15 minute discussion about why we tie our shoelaces and "just do as I say".

The problem is when the discussion around something is so nuanced. Take school uniform.

Why do they have to wear school uniform? Because it's a school rule. Except they have exposure to papers like the Week Junior where there are debates and articles about whether there should be school uniform.

So if I say "because it's a school rule at the school you go to" I have 30 minutes of questioning about why it's a school rule, other schools don't have uniform, is it really cost effective and how DO supermarkets manufacture uniform so cheaply without forced child labour and what about individuality and it's not comparable to business attire because I have autonomy over my wardrobe.

And I think, feck me it's 8am SOMEONE GET ME A COFFEE AND PUT YOUR BLOODY UNIFORM ON

DC is 10.

I totally agree with your jigsaw example and when ordering at a table with a dedicated server as it gives a child confidence in their own abilities, but there is a fine line between doing this and letting a child believe they're as important to everyone else in the world as they are to their parents. I can't believe that your little Esme child isn't engaged in a conversation with you while they order for themselves in this busy queue (and to speak up over the hissing coffee machine) - and mentioning the mental acuity of older people is a little unkind. I've brought up children and grandchildren and treating others, particularly adults, with respect was always high on the list. I think we need to agree to disagree.

Yes
Plus , Parenting has become over complicated IMO

My sis insists on an adult sit in the back seat with her kids - obviously she has to sometimes

She has an app that tells her which breast to feed from !

The advice is overwhelming too and forever changing - my dad told me in his youth that bottles of baby milk was warmed on radiators .
Not saying this is ideal at all but !!!!!!

There is so much talk about the snowflake generation but I'm not convinced it's a simple as that. Just because some young people are more open to talking about MH issues doesn't mean previous generations weren't suffering from MH issues.

I think there is more pressure with exams, housing, finances and early careers these days.

Also, it's not like the helicopter parents weren't around when I was younger. They presented themselves very differently but I plenty of people who got jobs through Mummy and Daddy's contact. Times have changed.

Totally agree. I work in a university and it’s shocking how little resilience there is in young people. Can’t deal with any difficulty without falling apart. Don’t get me started on the parents who want to be Cc’d in to every email their kid gets sent to make sure they are studying properly. Some pre ts even come and sleep on their kids floor in student housing. They will be in the work place in a couple of years. Are you going to accompany your child to work on their first day? This helicopter parenting is SO damaging

We shouldn't make sweeping generalisations about an entire generation. Speaking for myself, I don't overthink parenting. I don't follow parenting advice on social media accounts, but I do read a lot on child psychology as that's part of my work.

Again, I can only speak for myself and my friends, but I think we're doing a much better job than our parents who were often screaming and/or hitting us.

For what my tuppence is worth....

Can I suggest parents 'parent' and stop trying to be their childs 'friend'. My parents told me and my brothers and sisters regularly what was what and set firm boundaries and none of us consider ourselves as abused or traumatised by such an upbringing. Just well brought up.

Oh, and get off the phone... This scrolling endlessly through seas of crap on t'internet instead of engaging with your child would bloody well help everyone else they have contact with.

My parents didn't have a village to raise their family just themselves. I might add that the six children they had between them have all turned out very well educated, socially acceptable, hardworking and respectful.

Okay, off for my nana nap now.... 😁

At 22 months I put plasters on my boobs and told boob obsessed ds they'd broken 🤣

It was fine. He's 5 now and still obsessed with me, just (thankfully) lo longer my boobs!

When I come across those kinds of parenting advice content, I quietly select "Not Interested." It's so weird to present parenting as if there's only one right way to do it and to preach to others. It comes across as slightly narcissistic and self-righteous.

Good question. I think it was Abigail Shrier's book that highlighted it to me.
https://amzn.eu/d/3hqKq4g

So kiddo is whacking another kid, or running into the road. Shouting is unkind is it.

I was hit as a child. I don't even consider that abuse. My parents were doing their best with what they knew. (Not that I do it btw) Hell, I got straight A's! 😆

I had five kids and was a single parent once the youngest reached two. I had zero time for sitting and persuading and I have to admit that I shouted a LOT. With five kids aged between two and a half and ten I had to run a tight ship just to get them out of the house and the oldest two to school, so I just couldn't have long discussions about how we needed to do things and to cajole and persuade. I needed them to do it and I needed them to do it NOW. I was also stressed to hell, had no money and the whole of life was a struggle.

My kids are all adults now. All happy, well balanced, employed in very good jobs (even my eldest DD who is ASD). They do not seem to have suffered and they have not ever said one word against my parenting. They understand that I did what I had to in order for life to run in any fashion approaching normality.

Being too anxious and worried as a parent creates the possibility of passing on those feelings to kids too. You don’t want them to feel the need to be perfect all the time so doing your best and seeking help during the difficult patches is fine.
It’s good for kids to see parents make mistakes, bounce back and rectify or deal with it. (I don’t mean abuse btw I mean the day to day silly stuff ) So if the child won’t put shoes on, parent will start getting ready earlier so they aren’t as stressed tomorrow. My kids had a radar for slowing down more when I was in a rush so si had to learn to do stuff like account for twice as long to walk to school on rainy days etc
We are talking about living and raising humans so a bit of “winging it” is natural and healthy. Not all expert opinion will work with your child and you will find out what works best because you know your child best.
When my kids were young, I felt bad for never feeling parental instincts that books claimed that I would have. I wasn’t raised with extended families or had experience with young children so I was 100% winging it and hoping that things would be ok and luckily they are. Kids are young adults who are happy, thriving and love me despite bumps like the teen years in between.

Mine are mid 30s. I was in no way a "perfect parent". I made a lot of mistakes. But yes my DC are happy in life, work etc and we have a brilliant relationship.

I think there's so much emphasis put on the first few years of life. But in my experience it's the teen/young adult years that can make or break a parents relationship with their DC.

I'm not talking about abuse obviously, that's completely different. But most parents are doing "good enough" and its sad that so many think they need to reach some level of "perfection" when really perfection doesn't exist in parenting. Because the children are individual human beings too. The two most important factors are do they feel loved and safe. Anything else a parent does is open to interpretation, depending on how the child sees it.