For thinking having lots of kids is selfish

30% of children in the UK are growing up in poverty. So if 40% of children in larger families are growing up in poverty, that isn't a huge increase on the national average.

I mean, ideally, all children would be growing up in homes that could comfortably afford them but this isn't exclusive to larger families.

Of course but useless parents will inevitably be even more useless (and perhaps even neglectful?) with more kids.

So 60% of those larger families don’t experience poverty? I really think that that is the root and I guess what you think a good childhood looks like. Personally I don’t rate masses of time spent in after school activities as optimal. I think it’s lovely that you looked at your own childhood and thought what you really wanted and then gave that to your children. The fact you wanted to do that rather than the act says to me that you are probably a really loving dedicated mum. I think that is what will make the biggest difference.

I don't believe the amount of children is necessarily the issue, I firmly believe that no matter how many or few children you have you need to make sure you are able to provide properly for those children - financially, emotionally, time wise, house space and with 100% dedication to raising those children to the best of your ability in order to ensure they can become the best they can.
We currently have 4, will have no. 5 later this year and plan on having one more after that. They currently range in age from 1yr to 9 yrs.
We have space for them to all have their own room - 2 of which are permanently empty as the 3 oldest sleep together in one of the rooms every night🙄
We are very financially secure while both only working very part time hours and we have paid help 3 days a week.
Due to having the most amazing extended families, great grandparents, grandparents, aunts uncles etc, all very involved in their lives we have actually had to keep notes of who has had who in order that the adults all get their turn!!!
We each are involved in 2 separate hobbies/sports that some/all are involved in and in between spending time with them on those we each carve out one on one time with each child several times a week, every week.
So while some of the above is only possible due to finances and family involvement the rest is down to us as parents and I, at the risk of sounding like I'm bragging, am very proud of both DH and I for our commitment to them.

Yes it is down to the parents, useless parents are useless regardless of numbers.

I have 3 and that is definitely enough. I struggle to spread myself around them properly as it is, and couldn't imagine having more. I always wanted a big family, but now I realise that it wouldn't be fair on the DCs.

Agree. A big enough gap and you avoid parentification (as you did) and a small gap also avoids it, but creates a different problem of competing needs in two extremely young children.

The gaps between me and my siblings weren’t tiny and weren’t huge, but coupled with two parents with no real understanding of risk assessment, meant I took on a parenting role at a young age (6).

Again it seems to come back more to the uselessness of the parents, though I think even the best parent would end up parentifying the elder kids if they had over a certain number of kids in the same household.

Depends on spacing as well, you could have 2 a year apart and it be difficult. I have 4 and the eldest was in his 20s when the youngest was born, away at university and definitely not parenting anyone and not feeling all attention was on the baby and he had his own life.

I knew someone who had a premature baby, their older child was not quite ten months old. Now that is a difficult situation when you are trying to do your best for both of them. She always said it was harder than twins as both babies but different stages.

The other problem with being the parentified child is that it ruins your adult relationships with your siblings. I’m not close to my siblings because they see me as quasi-responsible for them and therefore their own children. They’re always moaning that I’m no longer around to provide childcare and have suggested on numerous occasions that as I don’t have kids, my money should be spent on theirs. My parents get let off the hook entirely.

You don’t have to have an enormous family to end up parentified, either - just parents who are happy to abdicate all responsibility.

The problem lies in how good the parents are, not the family size, though like you I agree that over a certain number it’s impossible to ensure all needs met.

I think much of what you are describing is the result of poverty not family size @User788889 . You have identified that you lacked things and feel (probably rightly) that there would have been more for you if you could swap a few siblings for the resources. Your parents could have spent their money/time on something else just as easily though. It sounds like your idea of a perfect childhood wasn’t something they were willing to facilitate. It will be interesting to see what your own children choose to do with their lives.

There's a benefit cap on more than two children.

This is absolute nonsense. I grew up one of three and both my parents were/are incredible parents. I was never short of time, love or space or anything else you have described. There was certainly no decline in their standard of parenting compared to those with less kids.

And believe it or not, my mum even had the energy to childmind on top and looked after a little boy full time from when he was four months old until he went to school and she's still good friends with the parents to this day.

I personally wouldn't have it in me to parent three children but I don't make assumptions because I couldn't other that others are the same as me. And "you know what you see". Absolutely ridiculous you think you're suddenly an expert into all families with more than three children.

Actually, with reference to the above post, 2 of my siblings are child free by choice, after growing up in our shitshow of a family.

Based on what I have seen I have to agree. I work closely with families of all shapes and sizes and also I have friends and school parent acquaintances with differing family sizes and set ups.

The larger families all seem rushed and stressed. Most seem to be just getting through the day rather than actually enjoying it. When I'm in larger families homes it's often chaotic and messy and the children are often struggling in one way or another. I see parents struggling to get lots of children to do this that and the other, and toddles are being pulled along while mum fights with an older child and tries to push a pram etc.. I have observed a lot more behaviour issues in children of larger families. They get less attention and financial resources, such as holiday and clubs as well as help with uni etc

I'm not saying it's true for every single large family on the planet but it does not appear to me that the children are getting everything they need. They seem to be pulled along for the ride rather than fully embraced.

I know parents of large families will disagree but of course they will. I know some adults will say they loved having lots of siblings, but they don't know any different and can't know life where they would have had more time and experiences and know how they would have liked that.

Parents of larger families will say they have so much time to spend with each child etc but I really don't see that often and I really don't know how that is possible. Each and every day I spend quality time with my dc: talking to them after school, taking time to listen to them, doing homework and reading, meaningful bedtimes and being present at their clubs, assembly, events, getting to know their individual strengths and challenges and what they like. I volunteer at their school and activities to be involved in their lives. Cooking separate meals and attending appointments and making sure I can fully focus there. Knowing which child needs what on which day for x day at school. Financially too: allowing them freedom to have the best and extras such as spur of the moment cinema with friends or just being able to take them on expensive experiences or spontaneous shopping trips when they are having a rubbish time. Taking them out one on one when they have had a rubbish week or even as a celebration for something. I have one who has had the opportunity to compete at national level in her sport which has meant lots of time and money for us. One of us is away most weekends with her doing her sport.
I just do not know how anyone could do that with lots of children. I have two with a 4 year gap. People will tell themselves they are doing that with all their children in large families but there is no way on earth that's possible.

I was one of 5 and neglected. The new babies were the focus and older kids forgotten, left to fend for themselves too young. Adult siblings have chosen to have two or less children, with two choosing none. That's the whole reason I am so devoted to my children as above. I never want them to feel as I did. It wasn't even the physical neglect and lack of experiences/finances that was the worst, it was the emotional neglect as parents were always stressed and tired.

I also agree that I get so much from my career and I can't imagine being able to work with more children.

I'm a single parent to two children compared to my friend and her late husband who had five children. Comparing our lives is swings and roundabouts. Her and her husband were very much a family unit and overall they were good role models for marriage. That said there were seven of them jammed in to a small house (unable to move due to council waiting lists) and I think that there quality of life is lower due to having to make money stretch further. Also 7 people in a small house is messy and the house never clean, often dirty. Her oldest son and only daughter have had to move out due to space and there isn't much room if they want to come back.
My children have never seen me in a happy marriage but there quality of life is completely different. I own my house and we are spread out over a four bedroom house, I expect they will be here in to young adulthood until they can afford to move out and I can afford for them to do that. They have both taken part in a lot of sport and I work out a lot too. I feel like there lives are much calmer and less restrictive than my friends.

Most of the child deaths I've read about from abuse were in homes where they were the only child 🤔

I mean you could say the same for parents of 1 and 2 really. “Good parenting requires sustained effort for many years”… and they end up missing that memo!

My Mum was an only child and she always wanted a large family and had 5 children. I wish she hadn't bothered - one sibling in particular made my life hell and none of us are in touch as adults. However, I accept that some parents are good at parenting and make large families fun to be a part of. I just think my parents were a bit shit at parenting.

Yeah, you may have a point there ... Whilst a family with 5 or 6 or more children might have a few children who find it harder to be listened to sometimes, it's not a given. And there is no guarantee of being heard if you have just 1 or 2 siblings.

I just have 1 sibling, a brother, and he was definitely my mother's favourite child.. And even though my dad adored me, my brother was respected and listened to a lot more than me by him, and in the eyes of both of them, he could do no wrong.

My opinions were poo pooed as I was 'just a girl,' and I was taught to do 'girl things' like ironing and cooking and sewing and housework. I have always had an interest in science and astronomy, (and the planet,) but was never encouraged to pursue anything involving any of the above. Even the school refused to let me.

I had my wings clipped early on, and never developed the confidence to retrain/do things that interested me when I was older... Ergo, I am just in a bog standard admin job now. And THAT is only because I took courses at college myself in my early 20s, (in tech/office work/typing etc.) If I hadn't, I would have spent my working life in a factory, (where my parents got me to go to when I was 16.) Several relatives worked there, and they had no problem getting me a job on the assembly line!

So I have a lack of confidence and I'm quite insecure, because I wasn't listened to as a child/younger person, and I am one of only two siblings. (Brother is 5 years younger...)

Thankfully my DC (now late 20s) are doing what they want with their life, as they weren't held back like many Gen X-ers!

That’s interesting can you link to your source? Is it a uk based study? Is the family size the only distinguishing feature or do other things play into that? For example my guess would be larger families are predominately seen in low and high income households, households with strong religious beliefs, immigrants, and possibly melded families. Some of these situations would I imagine make neglect more prevalent.

I'm one of four, and I had four. I would have kept going for maybe two more, but I realised my eldest wasn't getting the attention he deserved as I was too busy with the younger ones, so I stopped, and ensured he wasn't left out.

I certainly brought mine up differently to the way I was brought up, no screaming and shouting at my children for a start. We always had dinner together, and made sure they individually had time with one of us. I can't ever remember being read to, but we had plenty of books around, so probably did.

Perhaps people like different things to you?

I don’t really care how many children people have or if they want to spend their late middle age with friends or their own children. I do find it grating when people assume others choices are worse than theirs.

Myself I prefer large families. I haven’t seen any evidence that neglect or unhappiness is rife in the larger families I know and think it’s probably not the case. It’s just another thing to make sweeping judgements about.