To think my kids are rude?

• Stories before bed are a time when a child can wind down and feel secure and loved by their parent.

That's something that should not be conditional*
Seriously? so if they've had an horrific tantrum, beat up a sibling, trashed the house, they still get a story? ffs

Sounds very like ours. I don’t think my children are rude. They are just lively, very bloody lively. I take them up separately though and always read stories. But it’s stressful. I seem to say ‘teeth!!!’ Ten times.

It is actually emotionally healthy for children to experience emotions and deal with them. If they annoy an adult that adult will get angry and then yes they should feel bad.
Shielding children from negative emotions is a terrible idea.

Also and neurodivergence effects sleep. They just don't need the same amount.
So GP for melatonin?

Absolutely ..I have a ADHD child who is the same maturity as his younger sibling whos is 3 years younger

I have not read all the replies but wanted to say I had the same.
I used to say to my DH that who are these children that you pop your head in on whilst theyre reading and just say goodnight. So sympathies, you have spirited children.
All I can say to help is some kids are not suited to early bedtimes. Mine weren't and I found later bedtimes better. Otherwise you are just prolonging the agony. Just be strict on the teeth!! nothing else matters really. Good luck x

When I'm solo parenting (at least two nights a week, often more) the kids come home from school and have a shower straight away if needed. I make dinner while they're in the shower. They come downstairs freshly showered and in PJ's and then we either do homework or have dinner, depending on what time it is. Then at some point after dinner but well before bed time I make them brush their teeth. This way when it comes to bedtime they're already ready! Just need to do a wee and get into bed.

I'm not suggesting that this is the right thing to do or that it will definitely work, just wanted to mention what we do and what works for us in case it gives you some ideas :) Bedtime doesn't have to look the way it did when we were kids if we don't want it to.

Good luck, I really hope you find something that works well for you guys 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻

Oh Darling - what a shit for you.

I can't advise as my DS had/has ASD & ADHD (as well as bi-polar diagnosed in adulthood) & was a complete nightmare, would only sleep for about 3-4 hours then up again, running around.

I was a widowed lone parent & had to cope on my own as well as having to go to work and earn a living. I could have claimed Income Support and been a STAHM (I did claim DLA) but going to work was what kept me sane. My DS went to a very supportive nursery from the age of 3 months.

I tried everything - Time Out (after the 3 warnings & you're out) on the stairs in his room whatever just sent him into a melt-down & he would scream, cry, hit me, kick me, kick & hit walls & was obviously distressed. It would become a battle to keep the Time Out to the 3 or 4 minutes (1 minute per age) it could go on for hours out of all proportion to the unwanted behaviour. Reasoning with him just didn't work. Reward charts: as he said himself aged 4 'the problem with reward charts is that once you start behaving yourself the rewards stop so what's the point?'. Yes, he's a bright lad.

DS is now aged 30 & lives in supported accommodation.

So helpful, sure the op is grateful for that excellent piece of advice 🙄

My kids were the same. Eldest ASD, 3 years age difference, i tried most of what has been suggested, sadly didn't work for us though and it was very stressful. Only thing that did work was time and eventually melatonin for my ASD child. Once she was on that it became much easier and found her own bedtime routine with less input from me.

12 & 9 now and bedtime rarely stressful.

I did threaten to take out the bulbs of thieve lights when they really played up, I sat I'd leave them in the dark, that worked but I didn't use it often.

OP's oldest has autism and will need rigid structure.

Their eldest is on the autism spectrum. There is often a need for rigid structure.

Just a suggestion as this works with my DS:

"This is the second time I'm asking you to do X. If you do not go and do X now, there will be X consequence." Usually I reduce the number of pages we're going to be able to read.

If the bedtime routine goes past 20:45, he loses storytime because he's usually getting in and out of bed a good few times before he actually falls asleep.

You sound too rigid and controlling. You need to loosen up!

God I used to hate bedtimes. When they weren't acting up, I was still stressy because they DID act up so often, I was sure it was going to kick off.

I used to send mine (3 of them) up separately. I'd try and implement a "if you mess around tonight, you go up ten minutes earlier tomorrow" which sometimes worked - sometimes it just meant I was sending them up at 6pm <eyeroll> and two of them shared a room at that point.

So, sympathies but no real help, sorry!

What ARE they responsible for then?

A child is not responsible for a parent's feeling of, say, anger at a colleague at work. A child IS responsible for the feelings of the adults around them when they hit their sibling, scream "I HATE YOU" or refuse to get ready for bed. As adults we have a social contract with each other to behave a certain way, and as parents we have a responsibility to teach our children how that social contract works, otherwise we're raising feckless sociopaths.

"Don't fling food at your brother because it will make Mummy sad" is obviously a completely useless/lazy/manipulative way to position it but "Don't fling food at your brother because that is a completely unacceptable way to behave at the dinner table - clean it up immediately. Go to the kitchen and get a cloth now. I will show you what to do." is effective and teaches them a lesson in behaviour, and it's actually fine if that makes them feel bad.

No, it isn't. It is not emotionally healthy to make children feel bad.

A child is not responsible for their parents’ emotions.

Get that down to half an hour. By taking so long over it there is more time for them to be awful and wind you and each other up.

Start at 7pm. 7 - 7.30pm is quiet time - either watching something very chilled out together, or THAT's when you read to them, so that they're not bouncing off the walls when you suddenly announce bedtime, and also so that YOU are relaxed and calm as well.

At that age I wouldn't be bothered with showers. They take forever, and how smelly are they really? Twice a week is fine. It's just another opportunity for them to wind you up.

7.30pm - go upstairs first and fill the sink with hot water, and clean facecloths. Everyone into the bathroom together. Stand over them. Child 1 washes hands and face while child 2 gets into pyjamas, swap. Brush teeth - you might have to stand between them so that they don't touch or pull at each other.

10 mins flat. Have a visible timer.

No chatting/smiling/"now darling please, leave your brother alone" but bring out Scary Fleurchamp.

They're taking the piss because you're being completely wet, and possibly just shouting at them when you are already distressed and overwhelmed, when it's least likely to achieve anything except upsetting everyone, especially you. Get in there first with being strict & zero tolerance for any bullshit. You shouldn't need to raise your voice at all, but if you have to, do it BEFORE they're screaming at each other.

The abuse? Knock that on the head NOW. It doesn't matter how scary you need to be. Confiscate stuff etc. - whatever you know works on them, and be utterly terrifying about it. You're an adult, and they need to see a side of you that they can't wear down by being awful. But don't remove stories or a goodnight hug and kiss, because otherwise they'll just wail until 9pm as you've found. They also need to be able to depend on you loving them.

Bed, another story, but out the door in 15 minutes.

Mine are the same age gap, and this kind of thing tended to come in phases.They WILL calm down!

Shitshow here too so sounds pretty standard. I have ASC DS8 and getting him to go (the fuck) to sleep takes me 2 hours every night, most of it using my best sergeant major voice. My only sensible suggestion is trying a bath instead of a shower as it seems to zonk DS. Weighted blankets are good. I have also used timers in the past, ie no story unless PJ’s on before the time runs out. Thats not exactly relaxing for DS though…

I would try:

Bath & PJs straight after school
skip the hair brushing at night if possible
That just leaves toilet, teeth & story for bedtime.

bribe them with some warm milk if they get in bed by a certain time

Hot water bottles always seem to help too

Good luck

I would try and switch up the timings, get shower and pjs done right after dinner. Kids sometimes just play up because they don’t want to go to bed no matter how tired or how much they need to sleep, they just don’t want to and that translates to silliness and delaying techniques. Get them in their pjs then let them play for an hour or watch a little bit of tv or something, maybe a family board game or something like that. Then when it’s actually bed time all you need to do is the story, teeth then into bed.

also OP ignore the comments saying you shouldn’t have removed the story. I absolutely would have as well. Honestly all this chat that the kids don’t feel loved and that’s why they are playing up is nonsense and designed to make mothers feel guilty. Sometimes kids play up, it’s developmentally normal for them to drive their parents to the brink of insanity and not getting a story at bedtime because time has ran out is a natural consequence.

So, like I said, you take them to the bathroom and say "it's time to brush your teeth now" and stand there while they do it. Giving them the instruction and leaving them to it is never going to work.

Oh God, the Gentle Parenting brigade are here.
Ignore, OP. It’s actually OK for kids to be made to feel bad when they have chosen to behave like little tossers.

The eldest definitely winds up the youngest (and at times deliberately makes her late) but she is not stupid and we have explained to her that she needs to ignore her brother and stay focussed on getting herself ready. Never works though.

This is your problem to solve rather than your youngest's. She needs to be protected from the "winding up" and sabotage from her elder sibling. You need to come up with a solution to prevent this happening before you blame her for not "ignoring" her brother.

To a mother who is clearly at the end of her tether and you comment this. Nice.

Why don’t you try shower & PJs at a different time. They’re probably messing around as they’re trying to delay going to bed.

Shower & PJs after dinner then they can watch educational tv: history/nature documentaries. When you want them to go to bed you give them two choices: you’re going to pick what goes on tv so they can watch homes under the hammer (something dull) with you or if they want a story/being tucked in they have to go to bed NOW before you have your tv time.

I am ND and hated bedtimes as a kid. Why would I behave to make my parents life easier when I was deliberately trying to be difficult to get an extra thirsty minutes.