to think some people think WFH should be a constant nose to the grindstone?

there are not that many jobs where you can work 2 or 3 hours a day while being paid full time.

Flexibility is one thing, but long term and on a daily basis, it's not a safe job!

You seem to be arguing against a point I never actually made

Of course if you have a job that requires you to be present at your desk or phone for nine hours a day, then that's what you should do - nobody is saying otherwise. But it gets very boring when every WFH thread inevitably descends into people seething because other posters have more flexibility than them.

The fact that some people in other industries take the piss isn't my problem, frankly. I work for myself and set my own hours and level of work. I don't commit to hours I don't want to do and regularly schedule breaks in the middle of the day to see friends, come home and do chores or go for lunch and coffee.

However I then have days where I don't finish until 9.30pm having started at 6am. I have days where I barely have time to go for a wee because I'm so flat-out with bookings. It's swings and roundabouts.

The fact that I had enough time yesterday to meet a friend for coffee mid-way through the day doesn't mean I don't do my job or that my clients are somehow missing out. It just means that I'm lucky enough to be able to schedule breaks in my day sometimes and I take full advantage of that.

Yes, bu millions of us do have to do all those things and it's crystal clear they aren't bloody well doing them efficiently.

Your personal WFH schedule obviously works like a well oiled machine for all concerned according to you, but can you consider for a moment that there are others for whom it does not?

The poster you were quoting gave you loads of examples of government departments where productivity has dropped off a cliff edge and you've just ignored it and accused them of lacking imagination. I think you are the one who is lacking imagination here. The world of WFH doesn't begin and end with your company and your position in it.

It should not be too much for us to expect that public sector employers in particular who are working from home should actually serve the public within a reasonably time frame, as they are paid to do.

I think there's a difference there are some people who are saying they go to a gym class, do the school run, go shopping etc because their hours are flexible, and they work at different times to do a ft week. Other people do all those things because their job when wfh only ever takes 2 or 3 hours a day.
If everyone is happy and the work is done as expected, with then it's not unreasonable. I'd definitely be happy if I got paid for ft and only had 2 hours work a day! I'm surprised at the volume of posters that have those type of jobs but then I don't have much insight into how other industries work, (I'm learning from lots of similar threads!) so maybe it's more common than I first thought.

In the same way lots of people might expect me to be unproductive if I'm listening to the radio and chatting and yet that is quite normal for me, even on a really busy day

I have no idea. I've never worked from home before.

Many companies NEED workers who are not on a 9 to 6 schedule, because clients and requirements cannot physically be limited between these times.

Yep, and that's precisely why so many can have that time during the day to go to the gym, or for coffee, or to a school play - because they were logged on at 7am or know they won't log off until 10pm that evening.

The lack of imagination on these threads amuses me - everyone works different jobs and we all have different environments. If someone is pissed off because don't have the flexibility to disappear off to yoga at 11am on a Wednesday, maybe they should look into changing jobs rather than seething at those who are lucky enough to have that option.

You seem to have very little imagination when it comes to people's working lives.

Millions of us work from home (or for ourselves) and never have to answer a phone or deal with members of the public. We set our own hours and as long as our work gets done by the deadline, we can choose to do it at 2am or 2pm, or from a coffee shop, or from a sun lounger.

The days of people having to be "present" 9-5 are rapidly disappearing.

Fixed and strict working hours work for some people. MN is full of people fainting at the idea of being asked to speak with a manager a 4:58 when they are leaving at 5.And fair enough, the leave the office, they leave work behind.

For some of us, it's the worst work environment, and we much prefer not being on a clock, and treat "overtime" as just... working hours. If you work 3 or 4 hours on a Sunday, then that's what it is. But then if I want to take a 2 hours swim class midday, I can.

Many companies NEED workers who are not on a 9 to 6 schedule, because clients and requirements cannot physically be limited between these times.

You've described jobs that probably do have fixed hours and so staff WFH should actually be working and available during contracted hours. So I would actually agree with customer call centres and Government departments returning to the office full-time because there has been a clear nosedive in productivity / quality of service. But there are so many jobs that are nothing like the ones you mention where I think WFH is fine.

but there are no "work hours" as strict as you think we all have.

Quiet day, time to meet a friend for coffee ^whether I am in the office or not!". Then a client wakes-up and FINALLY send something to review at 6pm. You are spending your evening on it.
Client happy, it's done. Manager is happy, it's done. You are very happy, you didn't waste time at your desk when you were not needed, you have seen the friend and you have peace and quiet to work in the evening.

Exercise class midday? It breaks the day, you work better.

It obviously doesn't work if you are a teacher and have a class waiting for you.
For many other professional roles, you have a much better work-life balance.

It's about time we stop with being "present" in the office and doing bugger all there, wasting everybody else's time with random chats or "questions". No Steve, I am not available for you to pop at my desk to answer a stupid question just because you were in a chatty mood.

It's more that people resent the ones 'W' FH who take the piss and boast about it, as you are doing here. Have you not noticed how much longer we all have to wait to speak to customer service line, government departments, get passports, etc etc since WFH started? No doubt due to all the 'life admin' (ie skiving off work) being done instead of people doing their actual fucking jobs. That's why, and the boasting doesn't help, why not just keep quiet about your skiving?

I don't know what people are doing that they can go to the gym or see friends.

A job that's not like yours?

Plenty of people work jobs where they never have Teams calls (or at least, not unexpected ones) and where they can easily plan their days to allow them to go to the gym, or for coffee, or to do the school run.

Exactly. So many posters seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that all jobs are different.

I wonder if it's jealousy.

Definitely jealousy. My view is that as long as I’ve done my work, I’m all caught up on mandatory training, emails answered, checked with boss/colleagues whether they need assistance then I’m free to do other tasks where i’m not needed. I can’t just make up work to do 🤷‍♀️

I agree. In my job people regularly sit in the office talking about their lives or on their phone when they should be working . Go off for a fag when it’s quiet or go make a cuppa … Just coz they ain’t at home doesn’t mean they spend every minute doing what they are being paid to do .
My friend works from home and will take the dog out or pop to get some shopping but she regularly logs on to work outside office hours and even when she’s on annual leave she replies to emails and does work that she couldn’t do if she was in the office 9-5pm . She works unpaid a lot so her work are pretty lax with her knowing she more than makes up her time so they ain’t as strict with her .

I'm working from home while I wait for an operation. It's much more full on than my NHS clinic job. I pretty much have to be glued to my laptop all day, I can't just go and hang washing out or make lunch, i need to make a packed lunch the day before.
If I'm not assessing patients online I'm answering urgent queries and sorting out booking problems. To be honest I'm looking forward to getting back in clinic for the rest.
I don't know what people are doing that they can go to the gym or see friends.
People can surprise Teams call me at any time of the day and zim expected to be right there and not in my pyjamas either. I have to look properly dressed for work.

Why on earth would she do that?

I think there's a real failure of imagination around this discussion. Some jobs don't have fixed hours for one to "reduce". There's workload to be done and targets to be met, and that takes as long as it takes. I have WFH days where I have literally nothing to do, but then I regularly work late when there is a lot do and a deadline to meet. I wouldn't dream of giving up easy WFH days because I know I make up the time on other days, and if I don't I consider the free time well-earned because I worked my arse off in the early part of my career.

Every job is different. Some have a certain amount of work to do each day, others have specific hours.

Some people do take the piss when working from home, and they're spoiling it for others.

Why, though?

And you agree that standard office hours exist for some people but not for you? So the people who should do standard hours are the ones who might inconvenience you if they don't, am I right?

that's your interpretation, that's not what I said at all.

Standards hours, or at least "known" hours are needed for obvious reasons.

People know the office is officially opened and manned between 8 and 8. If they chose to book a meeting there at 10pm, they can't complain there's no one to greet and bring coffee to the client or to take their minutes. No one is stopping them from having a 10pm meeting though, it happens a lot with someone from another time zone.

If someone is only available between 10pm and 5am and no client is happy about that (reasonably) then we have a problem. If you want a report on your desk at 8am Friday, you won't know or care if it was done at 3pm on Thursday or 2am on Wednesday.

which already does cut down her availability to be contacted, so why cut it down further by letting her go off to yoga between 9 and 5 and do her work when everyone else has logged off instead? It just compounds the problem.

Because unless Brenda is your PA, Brenda doesn't have to be available FOR YOU. Send her an email, block her time, don't expect her to wait around in case you need an impromptu chit-chat.

Brenda is professional enough not to book her yoga session when there's an urgent last-minute meeting. That's where it comes down to.

You just want people to match your own schedule, if you have no flexibility, that's your problem, not a reason to penalise the entire office.

Degree of flexibility yes - but if you have time to do an exercise class, meet friends for coffee, run your own business and complete life admin during your work hours, have a conversation with your manager about taking on more or reducing your hours.

For the last 2 Fridays I’ve worked late into the evening due to other people fucking up their deadlines and because there’s no office to leave it just makes sense to do it then and there. Give and take innit.

Maybe if they hadn't been at yoga or taking a long weekend abroad when they were supposed to be working on Friday and Monday, or had arranged a child minder instead of trying to save money by doing their own childcare in working hours, they wouldn't have fucked up their deadlines? Just a thought.