Threads about dreams and woo

That was an interesting read ….thankyou.

I’ve zero interest in “scoring points”. I do have a genuine concern that people like you - who erroneously believe they understand something and then spew it everywhere - are low grade dangerous. So yes, when you’re wrong I think it should be pointed out.

You would benefit from reading Popper. And he is very readable as well as being extremely important in distinguishing between scientific and non-scientific analysis of the universe.

Thankyou so much for your detailed response;
I really appreciate you taking the time to think about this.

Personally, I don't believe dreams have any particular relevance to anything, and I don't believe they suggest much at all about the psyche of the person experiencing them. They are far too haphazard and random, and quite frequently are nothing more than absurdist reconstructions including partial memories. I see it kinda like if you took a photograph and a recording of everything you have ever experienced, stuck all of that in a giant box, and shook it until three things fell out, you'd get three things that were relevant to you, and would probably evoke some significant memory or suchlike, but they would say absolutely nothing at all about you because they'd be entirely random.

I know I also dream entirely differently depending on my own level of fatigue, and also the sleep environment, and therefore I also believe that dreams having any specific meaning is implausible because they are clearly influenced by factors which can be controlled and manipulated. I also lucid dream from time to time, and since in those cases I am directly influencing the narrative, to me it's clear that this is also perfectly adequate explanation for the non-lucid dreams, i.e. it is very much my brain providing the images and narrative, and not some outside factor, even though things like fatigue and room temperature influence my actual propensity to dream.

Most mornings I'll wake with no recollection of any dreaming whatsoever, but I have experienced recurring dreams from time to time, especially one about my teeth falling out and another about being unable to swing a punch. The former is supposedly a sign of insecurity, but I don't really accept that, and the latter is a simple case of restricted movement because of being bound inside the bedclothes. Frustrating as hell, but nothing remotely "woo" about it.

I think cases of nightmare and so on are distinctly different. I'm not prone to them myself, but I don't think it's any wonder that if a child is in a disturbed, concerned, anxious state about something while they are in a waking state, that will affect their sleep, and also, I have experienced fever dreams while I've been ill with influenza and suchlike. Again, I don't find that remotely surprising. Sleep paralysis three times, first time as a child was terrifying, second and third more a curious, if uncomfortable, experience, because I knew what was going on so it wasn't quite as frightening. But again, Sleep Paralysis is a physiological phenomenon and not really a "dream".

Unsure if this will meet with serious thoughts but I assure you all they will be appreciated;

do you believe that dreams of family etc are a visitation by the deceased or are they evidence of unresolved issues that play on our sub conscious.

would love to hear your responses & may I thank you in advance.

I wasn’t citing physicists as masters of the universe and the ultimate arbiters of what is and isn’t possible 🙄 Yes, many scientists believe in God. But that is a matter of belief not knowledge: the existence or not of a deity is not susceptible to interrogation by the scientific method. So it is not - per se - inconsistent to have a scientist who believes in God.

But that’s a long way from your belief in ESP (which no, no repeatable results supporting its existence have been generated in scientific experiments).

your point is both tired and misconceived: your understanding is - on the evidence of your own posts - flawed and you have failed to understand the distinction between unexplained and incapable of explanation.

So far as such theories exist I am not aware that any have been proved. And even if they were, that is not the same as - to take your example - saying that because something were to prove that there are intersecting universes that this would explain (as opposed to could explain) “spirit phenomena and time travel”.

I’ve long said HPS should be taught in schools but it seems without also upping the curriculum on basic logic, this would be wasted …

I think yabu, you can't tell people with certain opinions that they can't post so that others with the "right" (in your opinion) opinions can discuss between themselves. That's not how opinion forums work

So interesting. Apologies for planting pink cats in heads. I will need to bear this in mind more when working with young people.

I think some - me included - would disagree that "not everything can be explained". I personally am not able to explain everything, but yes, I consider that everything that is "observable" using the human senses is susceptible to scientific explanation, even if I am not able to supply that myself. "Unexplained by me (or you)" and "incapable of explanation" are two completely different things.

I accept also that there are things that we may lack the scientific technology/understanding to explain yet (though I don't think flying mobile phones in Wales comes into this category) but that this, again, is different from "incapable of explanation". It is merely "unexplained".

I think it requires a stunning lack of imagination to assume that something you can't explain is not capable of explanation (other than "magic ghosts, innit?"). I have a pretty extensive education and am well aware that there is much that I am not able to adequately explain but that someone with, say, a better grasp of physics might well have no problem explaining.

I think you're confusing "impedes discussion" with "means the thread doesn't go the way I want it to go".

There's an argument for leaving people to it on the paranormal thread, but not in AIBU where the earthquake one was

This isn't a TAAT, but an observation across the board.

Just saying something isn't it, doesn't make it so @Giggorata

This is a thread about thread(s). It clearly is.

The thread talking about earthquakes- the OP is literally asking for thoughts on what rational “non-woo” explanations there could be. Feels like it would be more appropriate to ask the woo posters to pull back a bit there…

Thanks, @MelisandeLongfield - I didn't know about that part of the site.

It has its own section already. URL is 'the unexplained' and visible title is 'The Paranormal'

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_unexplained

I didn't see the dream thread, but if it was in AIBU or Chat I think it's reasonable to expect some responses from people who firmly deny the existence of any supernatural forces.

Am I requesting a paranormal echo chamber? I don't think so, just hoping for people's experiences and views, without the repetitive dogmatic responses (from the same people) that it's all bunkum

I'm not trying to police posts, simply wishing the “rational” people would have their say and then let the rest of us get on with discussing the subject

Yes, you are requesting an echo-chamber if all you want is one dissenting post, the dissenter to then bow out, and everyone else to continue on agreeing with each other until they are sated. Nothing wrong with wishing for that, but it's not how generalised sections of a forum function.

Yes, I think that's a good point, @XDownwiththissortofthingX . A different section for those with such an interest. If it goes in AIBU then it gets the predictable traffic. I think that's why there's a Muslim and a Jewish section, too.

Some people are so monumentally stupid, and so "open-minded" that their brains have fallen out.

Giving unopposed credence to woo doesn't help to progress humanity.

It's the latest societal diversion (opium for the masses) from all the horrible shit going on in the world. People are mostly making it up, embellishing and straining for patterns in the dark. It's mainly financially benefiting Danny Robins.

If people are bringing woo threads to AIBU then they should exoect to be told, publically and briskly, how unreasonable they are being.

I actually agree with you, @Giggorata , I think some things are impossible to explain. I think it's very arrogant to assume that we all have an explanation for everything! It's just about the threads you were talking about. The best thing you can do is just challenge those posters, and engage them in debate - you won't be able to stop them posting.

There was a similar complaint about threads relating to Christianity a while back, contending that atheists invariably invaded the threads to ridicule and decry believers' accounts and so on. There was a suggestion that if people wanted to discuss religion they should probably post in the section specifically intended for that, and then the atheists and agnostics might be more inclined to leave them to it.

That appears to have happened, and there have been far fewer threads devolving into circular arguments about theological subjects in AIBU recently, so perhaps if "woo" people want to be left alone to discuss woo nonsense, it needs it's own section. If you post in general sections, I don't think you can reasonably expect anything other than generalised responses, including the gamut of views and opinions that come along with that.