Elderly parents won't write wills or funeral plans.

I'm so sorry. That must have been very difficult.

There are two separate things. Funeral - paying for it now, or just writing down or verbally passing on instructions - agree, not everybody wants to do that, and there's an argument for saying it's for the bereaved to decide how they want to mark the deceased's passing and life.

However, getting one's affairs in order, decluttering, leaving clear records of one's financial affairs and ideally making a will and getting power of attorney drawn up for both health/welfare and finances - these are just common sense, considerate things that everybody should do, not just older people. It gets more and more urgent though, as the time when these things will be needed is most likely when a person is older and their health starts to deteriorate. There's nothing outrageous in having a carefully worded conversation with a family member about this.

I wonder if concern about power of attorney might be because the older person assumes they could lose all control of their affairs as soon as it's drawn up. Might be worth stressing that it doesn't take effect until it's needed.

Maybe they don't care what happens at their funeral as they will dead! I think it's outrageous to be pushing them to discuss this. Perhaps they don't want to think about dying? Not every "elderly" person is comfortable with the flight they will die. Despite Mumsnet thinking they should be ready. The surviving spouse will sort the first funeral out anyway. Mind your own business. They could be around for a while yet

I agree. I don't know why people are putting LPAs and wills/funeral planning together. They're completely different.

In my mind, when you're dead, you're dead, so if the deceased wasn't bothered to plan their funeral, i.e. choose burial or cremation, choose religious or not, choose casket style, etc., then they were clearly not that bothered!

If they didn't write a will, then they by default must have been happy for their estate to be distributed via intestacy rules. Again, they were clearly not that bothered to do anything different.

But LPAs are a different kettle of fish. They come into effect when you're alive so will have an actual real effect on the person when they're suffering health or mental problems. Not having them in place means your nearest and dearest don't have much of a say in your treatments/care for your health issues. It means there's no mechanism for paying for bills, buying stuff, financing healthcare or other care when you need it. Banks, utility firms, etc simply won't talk to your nearest and dearest and won't take instructions from them. Care homes etc need someone to pay their bills, so without a POA, it falls to family to stump up as they're not able to access the bank accounts etc without going through the process of arranging guardianship etc via the family court which can take several months and costs several hundred pounds!

Until you've had a close relative needing healthcare or other care, and they've not done a POA for health nor finances, you don't appreciate how helpless you are.

We've just been through it with MIL. She had dementia but had coped with family help for several years, where we took her to the bank etc and "guided" her through what she needed to do, what to sign, helped her write cheques, etc., went to medical appointments with her to support her and help her understand and ask questions etc. She was still living independently in her own home. We kept mentioning POA but she baulked at the cost. She kept saying she'd do it when the need arose. Trouble was that she deteriorated very rapidly and events over-took her. Literally worsening by the day, both in terms of physical health and her mind. Every time we asked for GP/hospital help, social care help, contacting banks or utility providers, first question was always "have you got a POA" - if not they'd only talk with MIL directly and that was becoming more and more impossible. She couldn't set up a direct debit for home care costs, so we had to pay for it. People she came into contact with, i.e. the home care manager, could clearly see she was no longer of "sound mind" so knew she wasn't capable of signing a cheque or setting up a direct debit for their costs etc! We couldn't even start the process of getting POA as no one would certify that she knew what she was agreeing to! We had to start down the court of protection route but that needed a "professional" to confirm she wasn't capable of understanding things, and the GP surgery simply wouldn't do it as they were "busy" and wouldn't give an appointment for an administrative matter, so we had to wait until she was admitted to hospital, and get a hospital doctor to evaluate her and sign the paperwork. Then it's a several month wait for the family court to process the firm. MIL was dead before it was granted! Trying to organise healthcare, organise her finances etc dominated her last few weeks alive - we'd be spending time filling forms and pleading for help from the GP surgery, social services, etc., rather than spending quality time with MIL!

I think LPAs are a completely different kettle of fish to planning one’s own funeral.
I think it’s fine to say in general terms that one would like eg burial and the service at a church but not any more than that. Some people are obviously fine with choosing their own coffin. Frankly it would give me the heebie geebies!

I disagree somewhat. If you don't sort out your affairs (Will and LPA) do you expect your loved ones to be potentially in financial difficulties or have to go to court to be appointed deputy or fund care as your accounts have been frozen? It's not chilling. It's just practical.

A Will and a set of LPAs is so easy to get done and shows you care about your loved ones.

It doesn't mean you are old or about to die either. What if you had children under 18? Would you appoint their guardians or just say such is life and assume Social Services will sort them out?

But if you have a blended family or you and your partner are not married or in a civil partnership, wills are essential to make sure your money goes where you want it to. Under the intestacy law, partners get nothing if you're not married or in a civil partnership

Too right. My partner died very suddenly and I had no say in anything. His son arranged the funeral, even down to choosing the music, got the money that was in DP's bank account (thankfully, the house and most of our savings were in a joint account, so he couldn't touch those) and even invited people that DP definitely wouldn't have wanted there, including his ex, who had been utterly abusive for most of their relationship. As it was during the pandemic, the numbers that could attend were limited and some of our closest friends couldn't come.

We had intended to make wills a few months earlier, when we realised that the value of the house took us over the inheritance tax threshold, and we were going to get married so that there would be double the allowance, but within a few days everything went into lockdown.

I don’t really get this. Isn’t sorting out a loved one’s funeral, a sort of final act of love and literally and symbolically the last thing you do for them?
I know in Ireland it used to be considered an honour to physically dig the grave of good friends/relatives.

My mum saw my dh and his siblings have to sort 2 funerals in the last 6 years and then my mum and my aunt had to sort my grans funeral too(their mil) so my mum decided to make life easier for me by sorting POA , will and funeral.

she said my dh had his siblings whereas I’ve not got that.

Sorry OP but in my recent opinion you have good reason to be worried. My DH passed away recently and left good notes on his accounts and shares, et cetera and I pretty much knew everything anyway but it’s still been difficult.

During the past month, I’ve contacted all the banks building societies DVLA, HMRC and his private pension companies and they all have different ways of dealing with things. Some were very easy and allowed me to upload a copy of the death certificate others needed it posting off.

DH also other than stating he wanted to be cremated in his will left absolutely no more instructions and it’s surprising really if you want a funeral service whether it be burial or cremation how much thought has to go into it

I can understand it’s difficult for your parents to want to face their mortality and write wills, et cetera, but it’s really not very fair on you

Assuming they don’t go together, you will at least have the other one to ask questions of and if you are to be involved in the sorting of your parents affairs I would suggest that you also ask questions of the others financial stay as well.

I got myself a notebook a couple of years ago knowing that DH had a life limiting illness and started making notes of odds and ends of things that I knew about and other things that I stumbled across that various times

It’s been enormously helpful in sorting out things like probate.

Apparently, you can download the probate forms and it has been my intention to do that, but I haven’t actually got to it because we have some complications due to a business we both own and my accountant suggested we use their in-house probate person who I saw the other day and was enormously helpful.

When the worst happens, I would suggest you Shop around for somebody to fill in the probate form, these qualified people will ensure that the form is correct when it goes in and therefore won’t keep bouncing back to you, yes it will cost and it will come out out of this estate but in view of everything I would imagine it’s going to be money well spent.

I agree. My parents are in their 80s and I wouldn't dream of asking about their Will or telling them to sort out funeral arrangements. It's up to them what they do or don't do.

@gmgnts
I agree. It's very chilling indeed and that's why I think assisted dying is so open to abuse.

Most people would feel pretty awful if their parents didn't have anyone at there funeral or if they didn't have a headstone.

While I agree profoundly with the assisted dying bill, I know what you mean about the moaning. My late Mum loved being surrounded by her stuff especially after she became housebound.

my parents ashes and those of my late husband were scattered at the crem. I get that its different if sibs can't agree but if it was me and one of my sibs was being intransigent I'd say "ok then you get to store them".

You never know what will happen in life. Do not presume your children/loved ones will be fit to sort out your affairs and hoarded possessions in the future. Moving my in laws whilst their son/my dh was undergoing radiotherapy was the most stressful time in our life. I couldn't give a shiney shite about an inheritance.

What is the OP supposed do with them? Put the out for the bin men?

I ended up with both my parents’ ashes - neither had specified what they wanted done with them. They were sitting there on a shelf for literally years, because one sibling couldn’t agree with any scattering-place I suggested, but couldn’t come up with any practical suggestion, either.

We did agree in the end , but it was over 9 years since my Dm had died, and over 20 since my DF!

Threads like this - there's another one currently where the OP is complaining about having to sort through her deceased parents' ornaments - make me re-think my attitude towards the assisted dying bill. There is a recurrent narrative here that old people are a nuisance and should have the good manners to just get themselves tidied up and ready to die, so that they are not a burden on their families. I find it utterly chilling. I write as an old person, one who has a will and an LPA, and who has , in the past, had to arrange funerals and sort out years of accumulated possessions of parents and in-laws. Such is life. When I was filling skips and making runs to charity shops, it never once occurred to me to think that these people should not have had the right to have possessions. And when I was arranging funerals, I never once thought that I wished they had made their wishes clear before they died. I just got on with arranging things with the aid of helpful funeral directors. If assisted dying becomes law, I fear that it may become the thin end of the wedge, where old and disabled people are pressurised by relatives to do the decent thing and get out of here to save everyone extra trouble. I think the OP needs to back off and let her parents do as they wish. Thank God you're not my daughter, OP, or you might find yourself written out of my will in return for your pressure!

@MrsFunnyFanny agree totally.

Money and property aren’t the only things that matter. Seeing a previously independent(ish) and strong-willed loved one reduced to a bed-bound, delirious and agitated state, being force fed glue-like water and mushy food is just unbearable. Without the health and welfare LPA it can be very very difficult to advocate for them and have their wishes fulfilled. They are largely at the mercies of our very conservative healthcare system, where fear of litigation overtakes kindness and common sense.

Have you written your will OP?

If not, lead by example.

It would also be unusual (though not impossible) for someone who has a share portfolio (as is the case with this OP’s father) to have an estate sufficiently small to fall below the probate threshold.

There is a difference between what banks will or will not do and what the law requires. In my late grandmother's case, going through the "probate" process actually added to her tiny estate through uncollected state pension.

I am not an expert on this by any means, but when my Dad died we showed his will, leaving everything to my Mum, to the bank along with the death certificate and based on that they transferred a small ISA directly to my Mum once we had completed a form. I wonder if the form would have been a bit more complicated if there had been no will.

Each bank sets its own limit as far as I can see and if you have money with them under that limit they don't require probate (or confirmation in Scotland), they just transfer the money to the beneficiary shown in the will. I suppose in the case of intestacy you'd have to tell them who the beneficiaries are. I have no idea what happens if you have a lot of money in total but spread between lots of banks so each bank thinks you are just a small account holder. (Not something we are going to have to deal with, fortunately.)

what people also don't seem to realise is that the "probate" process is also to ensure that the dead person doesn't owe the state anything and that the state doesn't owe them anything. When my grandmother died, she hadn't claimed her state pension for quite some time and so it was owed and paid to her estate. When my late husband died, he owed income tax and the estate had to pay it.