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AIBU?

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What if Sandie Peggie......... identifies as a Muslim Woman?

111 replies

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 09:21

I openly want to push why a male Doctor believes it to be acceptable to use an exclusively female changing room, intimidating and provoking an experienced nurse who was heavily menstruating, not that her cycle defines whether a male should be in a female changing room or not in my view. Surely the legal track of the employment tribunal would be entirely different, and his conduct would be impacting on her religious beliefs and privacy? Sandie Peggie is a white woman, is presumably not protected by any religious beliefs, but why? The Muslim community would not stand for his conduct and rightly so. Will any decision not in Ms Peggies favour be subsequently upended by Beth/Brian/Frank imposing himself on the women's changing room when a woman of colour or Muslim woman is enjoying the privacy of that space?

OP posts:
Bushmillsbabe · 07/02/2025 13:49

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 10:57

So a trans person can't continue in their career? You gave to give up everything if you are trans? I'm gender critical and never agreed with self I.D, but what you are proposing is oppression.

I wouldn't have any issue at all working with a trans person.
But if someone who was genetically male insisted on changing in a female space I was changing in, I would feel intimidated and disrespected by them, and it's hard to work with someone who you feel disrespects you.

The issue isn't being trans, it's being disrespectful.

myplace · 07/02/2025 13:43

TreeSquirrel · 07/02/2025 11:23

The nurse seems to have behaved unprofessionally here. Regardless of her views on trans issues, she needs to treat colleagues respectfully in a work setting.

It is not sustainable to have a situation where she refuses to communicate with the doctor about patient care.

She may think the transitioning doctor shouldn’t be using the female changing room, but she should have raised her concerns through the appropriate channels rather than being rude.

In any event, there are cubicles in the changing room so this seems to be more a case of ideological and dogmatic views being put before what is best for staff and patients.

She did everything right. She raised it internally. Followed advice etc.

He complained that she waited outside the room. Complained that she came in the room. Complained she looked at him funny. Complained she didn’t look at him.

You have to hear him to believe the absolute shite he was complaining about.

TreeSquirrel · 07/02/2025 13:38

DancingNotDrowning · 07/02/2025 12:12

The nurse seems to have behaved unprofessionally here. Regardless of her views on trans issues, she needs to treat colleagues respectfully in a work setting

but the nurse wasn’t being treated with respect, they were being subjected to bullying and harassment by being forced to share sex specific spaces with a man. The colleague was forcefully trampling on her boundaries. I wouldn’t want to be tolerant of someone who behaved so appallingly and why should I be?

What sex specific space was she sharing given that there are lockers in the changing room? It sounds like the nurse wasn’t willing to share any space with a trans person as she also refused to communicate in a work capacity.

DancingNotDrowning · 07/02/2025 12:12

The nurse seems to have behaved unprofessionally here. Regardless of her views on trans issues, she needs to treat colleagues respectfully in a work setting

but the nurse wasn’t being treated with respect, they were being subjected to bullying and harassment by being forced to share sex specific spaces with a man. The colleague was forcefully trampling on her boundaries. I wouldn’t want to be tolerant of someone who behaved so appallingly and why should I be?

Motomum23 · 07/02/2025 12:07

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 09:50

I've changed my vote to YABU. The doctor is transitioning (not just playing dress up) and there are cubicles within the changing room. I think that this should have been better managed. However the Nurse doesn't accept them as a woman, so the doctor would have to be given seperate changing facilities. I'd be more interested to know if the doctor is now allowed to carry out intimate examinations without a female chaperone. If it was in a warehouse my answer would be different. I'd say that the trans person should use the seperate facilities.

Any man pretending to be a woman is playing dress up. Their needs do not trump the needs of any other woman.

FOJN · 07/02/2025 12:05

In the hierarchy of oppression Dr Upton is at the top; white with xy chromosomes. It's a brave new world.

TemporaryPosition · 07/02/2025 11:59

Theresidents · 07/02/2025 11:41

If she was a Muslim there would be racism against her complaining and people would be saying, if you don’t like it go back to your own country. People would be posting that actually they feel more comfortable changing around men, Muslim women need to get over it.

Would they? Where would this be said

TemporaryPosition · 07/02/2025 11:58

Hoppinggreen · 07/02/2025 11:14

Why on earth would you bring this up in a discussion about a man using a female only space?
I have a pretty good idea why you would, it would just be nice for you to confirm it

It was in response to a comment asking the OP why they imagined there might be a difference. An insincere and unconvincing pretence that we don't all know what that difference is.

Theresidents · 07/02/2025 11:41

If she was a Muslim there would be racism against her complaining and people would be saying, if you don’t like it go back to your own country. People would be posting that actually they feel more comfortable changing around men, Muslim women need to get over it.

username299 · 07/02/2025 11:39

I'm not sure how it would work if the woman was from a religion where she couldn't share a space with men because surely the mantra is he's a woman - trans women are women. They would tell the woman that she's not sharing a space with a man.

TreeSquirrel · 07/02/2025 11:23

The nurse seems to have behaved unprofessionally here. Regardless of her views on trans issues, she needs to treat colleagues respectfully in a work setting.

It is not sustainable to have a situation where she refuses to communicate with the doctor about patient care.

She may think the transitioning doctor shouldn’t be using the female changing room, but she should have raised her concerns through the appropriate channels rather than being rude.

In any event, there are cubicles in the changing room so this seems to be more a case of ideological and dogmatic views being put before what is best for staff and patients.

Mittens67 · 07/02/2025 11:18

You are referring to what would then be a clash of ideologies. Trans vs muslim religion. An interesting debate.
I don’t think that nhs fife would be supporting this male doctor so very publicly if the female nurse was muslim tbh as the optics would not suit.
I am an atheist and don’t believe human beings can change sex so for me any such debate would be rather like asking if a unicorn would beat a dragon in a race.
What is really happening here is that a male is using a female changing room so he is obviously completely in the wrong but apparently this is not reality for some in these dystopian times.

Hoppinggreen · 07/02/2025 11:14

TemporaryPosition · 07/02/2025 09:51

This is so disingenuous and it does the cause no favours.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-64835023

An autistic kid accidently dropped a Quran in Wakfield and was recorded as having committed a hate incident, the mother was left petrified after meeting with a group of 'community leaders' who issued death threats to her son.

This would never ever happen between white Christians in the UK today over a bible. And you know it. Pretending not to makes people look like liars which is very dangerous.

Why on earth would you bring this up in a discussion about a man using a female only space?
I have a pretty good idea why you would, it would just be nice for you to confirm it

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 11:11

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 10:59

I'd blame management for this. The doctor can't continue to use the men's changing room, because he us transitioning and presents as female. They should have addressed the lack of changing space. The Nurse should have been raising this internally rather than let an issue in the workplace affect patient care, especially the care of children.

Have you any evidence that Sandie let an issue in the workplace affect patient care? A male is transitioning to a male who presents as a female and everyone would accommodate him? He isn't a female and will never be a female.

OP posts:
eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 11:08

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 10:57

So a trans person can't continue in their career? You gave to give up everything if you are trans? I'm gender critical and never agreed with self I.D, but what you are proposing is oppression.

You are arguing with yourself and making up nonsense. He can do whatever he wants just not impose on women's spaces. I am not proposing anything about what he or others like him should do, other than stay way from women's spaces - I distances myself from what you state completely.

OP posts:
Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 10:59

GCAcademic · 07/02/2025 09:57

If I worked with a man who consistently eroded boundaries and insisted on getting changed in front of me, or being there while I was getting changed, I would struggle to maintain a professional composure when working with them too. That is what happens when men set out to intimidate women.

I'd blame management for this. The doctor can't continue to use the men's changing room, because he us transitioning and presents as female. They should have addressed the lack of changing space. The Nurse should have been raising this internally rather than let an issue in the workplace affect patient care, especially the care of children.

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 10:57

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 09:55

Or maybe those who impose on women’s spaces and intimidate women shouldn’t be in nursing -
tell me, how many complaints against sandie in her nursing career until men felt entitled to say they are women because they say so?

So a trans person can't continue in their career? You gave to give up everything if you are trans? I'm gender critical and never agreed with self I.D, but what you are proposing is oppression.

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 09:59

Coconutter24 · 07/02/2025 09:48

YABU. The nurse removed herself from a situation she was uncomfortable in which is her right to do. I put YABU though because your bringing religion in to it. The nurse is not Muslim so what would happen if she was should not come into it, it’s irrelevant, it’s like you’re targeting Muslims. This has nothing to do with religion!

Please read between the lines and join the dots - this has nothing to do with targeting any religion, the ruling of the ET has to apply universally.

OP posts:
GCAcademic · 07/02/2025 09:57

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 09:53

"Dr Upton said previous incidents with Ms Peggie had escalated to a stage where it "had the potential to impact care" of patients.
Dr Upton cited an incident on 18 December, where a young child was brought in.
The tribunal was told Ms Peggie refused to acknowledge or look at Dr Upton when discussing the patient."

That's worrying tbf. If the nurse can't accept a trans person to that extent, she shouldn't be in nursing.

If I worked with a man who consistently eroded boundaries and insisted on getting changed in front of me, or being there while I was getting changed, I would struggle to maintain a professional composure when working with them too. That is what happens when men set out to intimidate women.

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 07/02/2025 09:56

Well it's the same as that white woman who idenfified as a black woman - Rachel something... she was totally shunned and rejected. Because you can't change your race right?
But men can change their sex is different. Because it's men. right?

TemporaryPosition · 07/02/2025 09:56

TemporaryPosition · 07/02/2025 09:44

Because they'd be killed!!

OK. Maybe they wouldn't be killed. But I've seen many many cases like the one in the OP. And they never involve religious minorities because of the optics I imagine. There must be a reason, and that is that they're confident the authorities would side with them, whereas in the case outlined by the OP I don't think they're confident they would. And with a teacher in hiding, and Charlie Hebdo and other such cases, they feel there would be a real threat in kicking a hornets nest. They prefer easy targets

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 09:55

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 09:53

"Dr Upton said previous incidents with Ms Peggie had escalated to a stage where it "had the potential to impact care" of patients.
Dr Upton cited an incident on 18 December, where a young child was brought in.
The tribunal was told Ms Peggie refused to acknowledge or look at Dr Upton when discussing the patient."

That's worrying tbf. If the nurse can't accept a trans person to that extent, she shouldn't be in nursing.

Or maybe those who impose on women’s spaces and intimidate women shouldn’t be in nursing -
tell me, how many complaints against sandie in her nursing career until men felt entitled to say they are women because they say so?

OP posts:
Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 09:53

TemporaryPosition · 07/02/2025 09:45

He knows perfectly well white women pose no threat and can therefore bully and intimidate

"Dr Upton said previous incidents with Ms Peggie had escalated to a stage where it "had the potential to impact care" of patients.
Dr Upton cited an incident on 18 December, where a young child was brought in.
The tribunal was told Ms Peggie refused to acknowledge or look at Dr Upton when discussing the patient."

That's worrying tbf. If the nurse can't accept a trans person to that extent, she shouldn't be in nursing.

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 09:52

AgnesX · 07/02/2025 09:45

It'd certainly be interesting .. .

It will be because the ruling of the employment tribunal has to be universal and apply equally to all. He is clearly misrepresenting his sex and Sandie is not only standing for herself, but other women. I was reading the perspective of Pink News, and they repeatedly referred to her as Peggie but to the male as Dr Upton or Dr Beth Upton. Straight to the EAT and then the Court of Appeal if any attempt is made to validate his conduct.

OP posts:
TemporaryPosition · 07/02/2025 09:51

Coconutter24 · 07/02/2025 09:48

YABU. The nurse removed herself from a situation she was uncomfortable in which is her right to do. I put YABU though because your bringing religion in to it. The nurse is not Muslim so what would happen if she was should not come into it, it’s irrelevant, it’s like you’re targeting Muslims. This has nothing to do with religion!

I don't think you understand what the OP is asking/saying

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