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What if Sandie Peggie......... identifies as a Muslim Woman?

111 replies

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 09:21

I openly want to push why a male Doctor believes it to be acceptable to use an exclusively female changing room, intimidating and provoking an experienced nurse who was heavily menstruating, not that her cycle defines whether a male should be in a female changing room or not in my view. Surely the legal track of the employment tribunal would be entirely different, and his conduct would be impacting on her religious beliefs and privacy? Sandie Peggie is a white woman, is presumably not protected by any religious beliefs, but why? The Muslim community would not stand for his conduct and rightly so. Will any decision not in Ms Peggies favour be subsequently upended by Beth/Brian/Frank imposing himself on the women's changing room when a woman of colour or Muslim woman is enjoying the privacy of that space?

OP posts:
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BonerOfContention · 09/02/2025 15:57

I dont think its particularly unusual behaviour as it happens, I dont always look at the person talking depending on the situation but it makes me feel she was bullied by him.

I think she was bullied by him and he took every opportunity to write up notes about her supposed "microaggressions".

IF she avoided his eyes it would most likely have been because she wanted to avoid any involvement with him that he could then take the wrong way. He is a crybully, and she was minimising interaction to protect herself -- IF she avoided looking at him rather than just didn't look his way, that is.

soupyspoon · 09/02/2025 12:32

eulittleb831 · 08/02/2025 17:15

It is not normal behaviour but neither is misrepresenting your sex. He was setting her up, taking detailed notes as he knew a tribunal setting would be the eventual outcome - it is, just not in the form he wanted it to be, playing the anonymous victim. For me, the employer has failed in their duty of care, prioritising needs of deviant a deviant man over that of an experienced nurse.

My point is, that either she just wasnt looking at him because you tend to look at the patient during that situation or just looking at your notes or other equipment if someone is talking, or she felt uncomfortable being around him due to his bullying and thats why she wasnt looking at him

I dont think its particularly unusual behaviour as it happens, I dont always look at the person talking depending on the situation but it makes me feel she was bullied by him.

eulittleb831 · 08/02/2025 17:15

soupyspoon · 08/02/2025 09:06

I wonder what happened to her from him to make her feel she couldnt look him in the eye. Seems to be she was bullied by him, him taking notes every which way about where she chose to go into the toilets or changing room

It is not normal behaviour but neither is misrepresenting your sex. He was setting her up, taking detailed notes as he knew a tribunal setting would be the eventual outcome - it is, just not in the form he wanted it to be, playing the anonymous victim. For me, the employer has failed in their duty of care, prioritising needs of deviant a deviant man over that of an experienced nurse.

OP posts:
ThatGreatMember · 08/02/2025 16:20

TreeSquirrel · 07/02/2025 13:38

What sex specific space was she sharing given that there are lockers in the changing room? It sounds like the nurse wasn’t willing to share any space with a trans person as she also refused to communicate in a work capacity.

We only have his word that she was doing that.

eulittleb831 · 08/02/2025 14:31

I believe anyone who disagrees that the narrative wouldn’t be markedly different if SP was a Muslim or Jewish (credit to Maya F) woman is being disingenuous. Will Beth/Brian/Frank Upton impose his maleness on female changing rooms when a Fatwa/condemnation from Jewish communities is a likely consequence of not doing the decent and only acceptable thing and changing elsewhere?

OP posts:
Coolasfeck · 08/02/2025 11:48

FuzzyGreenAlien · 08/02/2025 11:27

Most discrimination cases rely on a comparator. We are mostly fairly comfortable accepting that "a man without a trans identity" is the comparator for "a man with a trans identity" so it seems like a fair question to me, e.g.:

SP is a woman with no known religious belief. A fair comparator might be a woman with a strongly held religious conviction that requires the privacy and dignity of separate changing spaces.

I disagree that discrimination cases rely on comparators relating to other separate forms of discrimination. If the discrimination is based on a legally protected characteristic (eg race, religion, disability, sex) it will hold up on its own merits or be compared to discrimination in its own class.

Therefore, in this particular instance the comparator should be ‘the same scenario played out in a different setting e.g changing room in a hospital etc’. The colour and religion comparison is as irrelevant as a comparison to a white woman in a wheelchair or with hearing difficulties.

FuzzyGreenAlien · 08/02/2025 11:27

Most discrimination cases rely on a comparator. We are mostly fairly comfortable accepting that "a man without a trans identity" is the comparator for "a man with a trans identity" so it seems like a fair question to me, e.g.:

SP is a woman with no known religious belief. A fair comparator might be a woman with a strongly held religious conviction that requires the privacy and dignity of separate changing spaces.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 08/02/2025 09:23

soupyspoon · 08/02/2025 09:06

I wonder what happened to her from him to make her feel she couldnt look him in the eye. Seems to be she was bullied by him, him taking notes every which way about where she chose to go into the toilets or changing room

It made him sad because she wouldn't change in front of him.

In regards to the unprofessional attitude of not looking at him while discussing a patient that was because she was looking at the person who was asking her questions about the patient. He was a 3rd wheel to the conversation

Coolasfeck · 08/02/2025 09:13

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 09:21

I openly want to push why a male Doctor believes it to be acceptable to use an exclusively female changing room, intimidating and provoking an experienced nurse who was heavily menstruating, not that her cycle defines whether a male should be in a female changing room or not in my view. Surely the legal track of the employment tribunal would be entirely different, and his conduct would be impacting on her religious beliefs and privacy? Sandie Peggie is a white woman, is presumably not protected by any religious beliefs, but why? The Muslim community would not stand for his conduct and rightly so. Will any decision not in Ms Peggies favour be subsequently upended by Beth/Brian/Frank imposing himself on the women's changing room when a woman of colour or Muslim woman is enjoying the privacy of that space?

The OP is unclear to me.

All I can make out from is the OP is upset a white man is in a white woman’s changing room, and OP thinks she would be more protected if she was a woman of colour. How? And something about Muslims being treated better although there are no Muslims in this story, just non religious white people. So why are women of colour and Muslims in this?

Have I misunderstood?

Pussycat22 · 08/02/2025 09:11

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 08/02/2025 09:05

But you can have your knob and balls removed and a vagina fashioned surgically. And those transitioning (properly) have testosterone reducing drugs.

Removing or inverting your penis does not change your biological sex. Neither does taking any drugs. Born male always male.

Nor will you menstruate which is totally in the female domain!!

soupyspoon · 08/02/2025 09:06

TreeSquirrel · 07/02/2025 14:10

Any staff member who refuses to communicate professionally with a colleague for ideological reasons cannot and should not be in a hospital setting.

I wonder what happened to her from him to make her feel she couldnt look him in the eye. Seems to be she was bullied by him, him taking notes every which way about where she chose to go into the toilets or changing room

Pussycat22 · 08/02/2025 09:05

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 10:57

So a trans person can't continue in their career? You gave to give up everything if you are trans? I'm gender critical and never agreed with self I.D, but what you are proposing is oppression.

And it's not oppressive to make WOMEN feel vulnerable?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 08/02/2025 09:05

But you can have your knob and balls removed and a vagina fashioned surgically. And those transitioning (properly) have testosterone reducing drugs.

Removing or inverting your penis does not change your biological sex. Neither does taking any drugs. Born male always male.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 08/02/2025 09:03

TreeSquirrel · 07/02/2025 11:23

The nurse seems to have behaved unprofessionally here. Regardless of her views on trans issues, she needs to treat colleagues respectfully in a work setting.

It is not sustainable to have a situation where she refuses to communicate with the doctor about patient care.

She may think the transitioning doctor shouldn’t be using the female changing room, but she should have raised her concerns through the appropriate channels rather than being rude.

In any event, there are cubicles in the changing room so this seems to be more a case of ideological and dogmatic views being put before what is best for staff and patients.

To use the cubicles he would have had to walk past the women changing. Not acceptable. He's biologically and legally male. By law he has no fight to be there as employers must provide single sex facilities.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 08/02/2025 09:01

Dr Upton said previous incidents with Ms Peggie had escalated to a stage where it "had the potential to impact care" of patients.
Dr Upton cited an incident on 18 December, where a young child was brought in.
The tribunal was told Ms Peggie refused to acknowledge or look at Dr Upton when discussing the patient."

That's worrying tbf. If the nurse can't accept a trans person to that extent, she shouldn't be in nursing.

These are allegations that Sandie claims are unfounded.

They were also not mentioned in Dr Upton 's original claim giving doubt about their truthfulness.

eulittleb831 · 08/02/2025 08:58

username299 · 07/02/2025 20:11

I'm sure you can work it out. Enjoy your evening.

I can't work out your position, and it appears I am not alone. I probably misunderstand and you are as protective of womens rights, spaces and sports as the majority are, it is just unclear.

2025 and we are actually discussing whether a male who thinks he is a female, when he is not a female, should be permitted to use a changing room exclusively for the use of females.... and that man is a Doctor who is fully aware that sex is immutable but wants to play the gender card, thinking his needs trump societal norms established over hundreds of thousands of years and protection for women.

I have to pinch myself sometimes. What next - Dr Upton is off today with heavy period pains?

I often think of the George Michael song "John and Elvis are Dead" about a close friend who falls into a coma and wakes up decades later. What is the world coming to? Is this in reality some sort of weird experiment?

OP posts:
username299 · 08/02/2025 06:01

FaithFables · 07/02/2025 22:50

So you're saying anyone can be a woman then? Men with penises, baby boys, my dog? All they need to do is say "I'm a woman" and magically they are?

Let me know what you don't understand:

So according to the NHS for a start.

FaithFables · 07/02/2025 22:50

username299 · 07/02/2025 16:47

I don't smoke. From what I understand from TRAs, trans women are women. A woman was raped in a hospital ward and was informed that there were only women on the ward. The person who raped her was trans.

So according to the NHS for a start.

So you're saying anyone can be a woman then? Men with penises, baby boys, my dog? All they need to do is say "I'm a woman" and magically they are?

FaithFables · 07/02/2025 22:45

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 10:59

I'd blame management for this. The doctor can't continue to use the men's changing room, because he us transitioning and presents as female. They should have addressed the lack of changing space. The Nurse should have been raising this internally rather than let an issue in the workplace affect patient care, especially the care of children.

How does one "present" as female?

BonerOfContention · 07/02/2025 22:42

TheyAreNotAngelsTheyDontCareAtAll · 07/02/2025 14:48

But you can have your knob and balls removed and a vagina fashioned surgically. And those transitioning (properly) have testosterone reducing drugs.

No you can't surgically fashion a vagina in a man. Surgery can create a hole lined by an inverted penis which never ceases to be an open wound- one that forever tries to heal, hence the need for frequent dilation. In men. By every definition imaginable this is not a vagina.

Jerabilis · 07/02/2025 22:19

Ponoka7 · 07/02/2025 09:53

"Dr Upton said previous incidents with Ms Peggie had escalated to a stage where it "had the potential to impact care" of patients.
Dr Upton cited an incident on 18 December, where a young child was brought in.
The tribunal was told Ms Peggie refused to acknowledge or look at Dr Upton when discussing the patient."

That's worrying tbf. If the nurse can't accept a trans person to that extent, she shouldn't be in nursing.

The strong implication from the tribunal today was that these 'incidents' appeared weeks later when Dr Upton realised he might not get his way

KTheGrey · 07/02/2025 22:07

TreeSquirrel · 07/02/2025 17:11

Nope- that’s impossible. I’m sure “many women” see the ideology of the SNP government as harmful. That doesn’t mean that hospitals shouldn’t employ staff who support the SNP.

It’s not for the nurse to decide who gets to be in a specific space. The hospital had a process and rightly or wrongly, it was determined that the doctor was to change in the female changing room (which has cubicles available).

It cannot be for any individual staff member to unilaterally decide that they won’t communicate with a colleague for ideological reasons.

Mm. The hospital made a call which causes women discomfort and possibly danger at work. I hope they will be found to have breached the EQ - because there are competing rights here, but the women’s side has the proportionate means to a legitimate aim proviso.

Kendodd · 07/02/2025 20:28

Does anyone know if this doctor also imposes themselves on female patients?

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 20:23

For those who doubted the relevance of this post, para 25 or Maya Forstaters statement in support of Sandie Peggie refers:

Some people mentioned particular cultural and religious taboos have their obvious roots in the very
real threat that men hold for women, as well as cultural expectations of propriety and honour.
“As a religious person, my beliefs are protected. My faith requires that I would NOT undress in front of males. Including
men who say they are women.” Muslim, Female, England, 35–44
“My Christian faith teaches me that my modesty is important and that nakedness is something revealed to only very few
people. I feel uncomfortable being forced into situations of intimacy with strangers of the opposite sex.” Christian, Female,
England, 45–54
“I am Jewish and I do not expose myself to any other male except my husband.” Jewish, Female, England, 35–4

https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/signed-Maya-Forstater.WS_.pdf

https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/signed-Maya-Forstater.WS_.pdf

OP posts:
username299 · 07/02/2025 20:11

eulittleb831 · 07/02/2025 20:07

So when you wrote "The person who raped her was trans" were you referring to a male or female?

I'm sure you can work it out. Enjoy your evening.