To wonder what would happen if LL were ever released?

@AlertBrickBear well what else do you call it if she's innocent? The deaths just so happen to follow her from nights to days and stop when she goes on holiday to resume the minute she's back? Then we've got all the times other staff members left their stable babies for a few mins to come back to them collapsing and LL is stood there. Plus the insulin only points to her. I mean if she didn't do it that's one unlucky nurse. Then she's probably the only nurse stalking families and hoarding handover sheets, just because she's nosy apparently. Then the morphine overdose in another hospital, AND the frequent tube dislodgements only on her shifts. Odds like that must be a billion to one when you look at the bigger picture. It's verging on the ridiculous that people could think this is all just a coincidence. They're just unable to admit they were wrong so they're doubling down, that's all it is.

Not convinced she’s innocent, but not convinced her conviction was safe, it’s quite a clear distinction. Based on recent reports, and also the details from the Royal Statistical Society, I’m surprised anyone could be.

It’s also quite the irony that in this situation you’re commenting that she’d have to be the unluckiest person alive. Rash statistical statements seem to be the order of the day here.

Watching BBC's Death Row last night (Crisis Stage, series 1 episode 3), there was a lawyer there who had been involved in many, many cases of trying to get death sentences commuted to life imprisonment without parole, prisoners are all inside for the most serious of crimes involving loss of life/murder.

Attempts to refute cases usually involves 3 aspects: questioning the investigation of the case (strength of evidence), checking if legal procedure/the law were correctly followed and checking that the jury were fully aware of any mitigating circumstances in the convicted person's life which may have led them to a different sentencing outcome (or indeed verdict on guilt).

He said a common question he was asked was 'What do you think about your clients who claim they are innocent? Do you believe them?' His answer almost all of the time is 'I don't know. I wasn't there.' Professor David Dow

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03zndw4/life-and-death-row-series-1-3-crisis-stage?seriesId=b071jy7p-structural-1-b03ytxmh 30 mins 30s but bear in mind the trigger warning as straight after he speaks there are crime scene pictures.

He just has to rely on the strength of the physical and circumstantial evidence to support/refute claims of innocence or guilt.

Doubtless, if this was the US (at least in the states that have capital punishment), LL would be on Death Row. So I though it was very sobering to remember this - particularly where there seemed to be little scrutiny of the prosecution evidence and a paltry defence at her trial.

Now, I don't know whether she is guilty or not. But it does seem that there are serious questions to be asked about how robust the evidence is, and whether there is any other compelling evidence which may throw doubt on the veracity of her conviction.

I think we just have to hope that justice (whatever the outcome) is properly served in this case. It's too important to all concerned for it not to be.
It's a question of trying to get to the truth, whatever we believe about LL, or whether or not we think she's 'likeable'. It's the truth that counts.

I'm glad to be corrected, and that the billing has stopped.

Yeah, sorry. Badly worded. I meant that if there were no murders there was nothing for her to be innocent of, because there was no crime.

I’m not making excuses. I’m explaining why deliberately making a medicines error during administration of a controlled drug is not going to get past the checker 99.99% of the time, because that check is usually effective.

Do all errors indicate future malfeasance? You’re ramming in the jigsaw pieces to make the picture you want.

Once again for the hard of understanding, I’m the one interested in the truth.

How many neonatal babies have you looked after? Have you actually listened to the press conference? Considering you seem such an expert. Lots of us have doubts about her conviction , I did right from her arrest. I have had quite heated discussions with colleagues about her guilt most of us working in women’s & baby health. Most of them have gleaned their info from the media, but if you actually look at the clinical arguments I know where I stand.

There aren't many situations like this to compare but yes I'm as sure as I can be given I've said before that for her to be innocent she'd have to be the unluckiest person alive. The people who think she's innocent seem to be convinced too. I have a feeling it'll be a bit awkward for them in a couple years when more of her crimes come to light.

I am not blasé. We should be doing everything we can to eliminate this kind of mistake. But yes, around two thirds of nurses have made medication mistakes. Being out by a factor of 10 or 100 is one of the more common mistakes. Some deaths have been caused by such errors. They do not prove anything about the mindset of the nurse who made the mistake.

It’s not ‘blase.’ It’s a careful discussion about an awful situation. I also wouldn’t presume to know how the parents felt.

@prh47bridge I'm sure if it was your baby she almost killed you'd be just as blasé. Yes we know there were two nurses, it's been covered. It was still Letby's "mistake" in the first place that wasn't checked by the second nurse. It's not like she expected her co-worker to be purposefully trying to kill babies, but yes she should've picked up on it. Which is obviously why she was devastated enough to almost resign. Something Letby never would've done despite being so "incompetent" at best. Nurses regularly nearly kill babies with morphine overdoses, really?

Are you usually so sure in these situations? Most people admit it’s a very complex situation with the most recent report making it more so, given their positions.

What are you basing that assumption of her feelings about the incident on?

You know there were two nurses involved in this incident? You know they both got it wrong? You know this kind of mistake is common with around two thirds of nurses making medication mistakes, with dosage or infusion rate being the most common? These are facts, not excuses.

Oh come on, you don't think it's slightly suspicious that it came out she'd given a baby TEN times the amount of morphine years earlier? How many excuses will you make for this woman?

Yes. If the CCRC accept the experts' views in the two reports then they will regret it to the Court of Appeal. The court will decide if the conviction is unsafe and may rule there were no murders. I doubt they would order a retrial.

The CCRC is aware that there is a lot if interest and it's expediting this, but it will still be a long process.

Can I just add if there were no murders then she is innocent surely or am I missing somthing?

The hospital thought it was all just a mistake. I think it would have been reported if the second nurse had thought there had been sleight of hand, rather than an error.

And yes, medicines errors do happen because of carelessness, distraction and many other possible underlying causes. I’m aware of one other error that she made, which is not good, of course, but there’s no catalogue of errors.

Making an error and being ungracious about the outcome of the investigation suggests someone immaturity, but doesn’t suggest someone is a murderer.

And for the record it’s not that I think Letby is innocent, rather that I think there were no murders given the paucity of evidence and the fact that some of it seems to have been hallucinated by an expert witness. I’m only interested in the truth.

I know. If she is innocent, it really is the must hideous miscarriage of justice.

She's also spent many years in prison when she could have been having a family, developing a career and friendships etc.

I feel extremely sorry for her if she is innocent. Goodness knows how she would build a new life, and I believe she is an only child too, so little / no family around to support her.

Well she did get the error past the checker didn't she? You can't know what her expectations were-we are dealing with a serial killer here (well hypothetically for you since you think she's innocent) they don't exactly follow rules, they take risks. There were two people responsible yes-and the more senior nurse was so devastated by the mistake she almost resigned. Lucy was just pissed she couldn't administer drugs for a bit. So what are you saying, it was all just a mistake? She seems to make a lot of those...

Lucy Letby a Nurse accused of killing babies

Your morphine comment is a good example of why lay juries are not competent to sit on trials like this.

Controlled drugs are prepared and administered by two people, and in this case the checker was senior to LL. LL would have had no expectation of being able to get a “deliberate error” past the checker.

The thing about Lucy's case which drew it to my attention is how many scientists, doctors and mathematicians keep trying to raise the alarm because they can see the evidence makes no sense. These are not your usual campaigners.

It's very unusual perhaps unprecedented. All the evidence seems to be either smoke and mirrors or totally, factually wrong. The investigation and trial basically seem to have been a very long and expensive witch hunt.