To emphasise that neurotypical kids have different needs to neurodiverse kids

I agree. I “came down hard” on certain behaviours with my DD before I knew she was autistic, and I’m afraid there’s some permanent trauma there as a result. The best thing her autism diagnosis did was teach me I needed to parent differently.

People in general just talk from their specific life view without thinking too deeply about it, NT and ND. You have to do what works for your family and be confident that nobody else knows how to run your ship as well as you do, seeing as they only see a tiny fraction of your life. And know not to share all your details!

My ND DD only eats 4 meals over and over again. She gags and cries over certain textures, always has done. Didn’t even seem to like drinking milk as a baby. She’s a teenager. A pleasant one, well-behaved in every way. I told a good friend about this and learned my lesson. Eye rolling, I couldn’t put up with that, she just has to get used to it, she’s too old to be doing that..

Okay.

I'm autistic, I'm not PDA but the experience may be relevant. Demands are much lower in adulthood, the main struggle can be being told to do something that isn't necessary or doesn't seem necessary and dealing with power imbalance. Many ND people, PDA or not, do not like people who act in an authoritative way. So schools and parents with there "do as I say not as I do" "do it because I said so" doesn't go down well.
In employment there are generally reasons for everything you do, if you are asked to do a task which is meaningful and has benefit then it doesn't feel like a demand. As an adult you know you go in to work when expected to because you will get paid. You eat your meals when you want to within reason, you come and go as you please outside of work and choose how to spend your leisure time, when to go to bed etc. As a child with parents who don't understand the importance of autonomy, children often have all the above managed for them without any conversation about the reasons for it. This can lead to huge frustration which manifests as challenging behaviours and demand avoidance.
Some ND people don't manage with work and adult life. The majority do and some are very successful.

RhaenysRocks I'm not an expert in this obviously, I'm just going by my own experience and what I've observed in others. I know a lot of parents of ND children, and the ones who seem to struggle the most with behaviour all have similar parenting styles, v gentle/permissive parenting etc.

Some children are definitely more challenging in general. All I'm saying is, as with parenting NT children, I do think parenting of ND children also plays a role. I don't mean this to blame parents, I feel incredibly sorry for such parents and know it must be extremely hard.

But you literally just said you know that ASD and ADHD presents differently, so just because your son has managed to take on board those lessons doesn't mean all kids with "the same" diagnosis can. You've literally just done the exact thing the op is talking about.

It would be nice if people realised that ND kids have different needs to each other, in the same way that NT kids do. Plus there's no wall between the two camps, it's a spectrum.

Sick of people talking as.if it's monolithic

Completely agree with you OP.

But also want to flag the difference between neurodiverse and neurodivergent.

Neurodiversity is the natural variety of human brains, while neurodivergence is a person whose brain processes information differently. Our children are neurodivergent.

I'd imagine that pretty often it's not at all down to lazy parenting, it's down to not knowing where to start when you're parenting a child with all sorts of issues that is really struggling to cope with the world and who processes everything in a completely different way.

People say there's no manual on how to raise a child - well there's certainly no manual on how to raise an ND child. Who's teaching you how to differentiate between an autistic meltdown and a tantrum? who's teaching you how to cope with a child whose anxiety goes through the roof when they don't feel in control? who's teaching you how to get a child to eat when they refuse everything apart from strawberry flavoured starburst? who's teaching you how to manage a child that is overwhelmed by noise, bright light, people, their sister?

People are generally just doing the best they can in often very difficult circumstances. And yes these kids may behave much worse for their mum or their parents and that is because they are their safe space where they can let out all their frustrations and anger from not coping with the world.

If you have a genuine interest, the PDA website has some useful case studies of adults with PDA and how they are.

Some don't have employment as they can't. It's a very difficult future But the condition is much more widely understood now, so I am hopeful that better strategies and techniques might be taught younger, so the future is less bleak.

It's also worth noting that school really is different to work. In pda there is a real need for control to reduce anxiety. Some schools really increase anxiety so the pda shows up very strongly. Some work places offer a lot more control over what you wear and how your day is and are less anxiety inducing so the person is less anxious. Imagine being somewhere where it's whole purpose is to tell you stuff you don't know yet, but uncertainty makes you want to control things, where all the other people are unpredictable.

To be honest I find parents who say my 2 children have autism pda, adhd and they can do whatever skill or attribute is being discussed, more annoying.

(I don't mind if they then explain how they developed that skill in a useful way and recognise that not all people with and will ever achieve it)

Not everyone is neurodiverse. The diverse part of the word means ‘as opposed to typical development’, this is just one step away from ‘everyone is on the autism scale, from very to not at all’.

both of my children really liked the majority of the teachers. They were adult of course, and they acted mainly like human beings. They had rules, and followed them.

The other kids however. Thats what made it so toxic for both of mine.

99% of MN children are ND in some way now.

You worded this so well. I relate completely. It's the pressure and environment of school that I would argue doesn't work for anyone really well but not at all for our children.

For my son things only escalated when school changed from what felt like a safe fun environment no pressure to suddenly unsafe all about results grades rules regulations don't do that don't be like that etc

As an adult if work suddenly becomes too stressful or management changes etc we leave that job. Thats a lot harder to do as a child when we have a one size (doesnt) fit all mainstream education model.

even the parents of children with the same conditions comparing children. I have an autistic child with very high needs. I’m also a single parent, my sons dad often comes to me with a comparison from a autistic child in his family saying ‘if _ can do it then our child can’ - completely disregarding the fact that autism is not just a one size fits all and affects each child as individuals.

I have a relative who has struggled since adulthood, clear signs of ND but never diagnosed since there wasn't really a focus on it then and his parents' view was that "you don't want to label kids". It makes me want to weep tbh. He never got the help and support he needed and, while he managed ok at school because it was a small one, there was a lot of structure and he had a couple of good friends, he has totally failed to launch and still lives at home in his parents' spare room and hardly ever goes out. He is a lovely young man and could have lived a much happier and fuller life and supported to fulfil his potential if he and those around him had understood him a bit better.

I actually feel for my son the adult world will be easier to navigate than school and education is. The journey to adulthood might not be easy. With the right support I hope he will find a job he enjoys with the flexibility he needs. There can be more variety,choices and flexibility in adulthood than there is currently in mainstream education. If my son was to work for a small business or own his own small business (again wont apply to all) he could possibly wear his own clothes navigate his start stop time flexibility how he works/from where. Again it's very different for all of us working for something we want to or what we understand makes a positive difference to our life. Currently I have no good reason why he has to wear a uniform to school when the aim is simply to attend and learn. He understands wearing a football kit or a p.e kit but the uniform just makes no sense to him and why it cant be more flexible. Particularly when on school trips they dont wear uniform ao the safety argument doesnt even work.
I'm pretty sure he'd be more able to avoid uniforms in adult life than he can now.

I have concerns he might need more support socially when we are no longer here. I hope he will continue to be close to his siblings and form good relationships with others. For me personally I don't know that my concerns are vastly different to any parents.

I think this is the point really. It’s a bit futile asking ‘the masses’ in AIBU (for example) for opinions on something they can know nothing about. Even if they are aware of ND, they don’t know your child(ren).
Better to get specific, professional opinions than asking people who can really only give you a guess, or worse, irritate the life out of you. That’s not fair on you or them.

With my daughter it became much easier for her because I was able to take my foot off the accelerator and take her out of secondary school. She has had alot of support. 12-17 were very very difficult - she wasnt diagnosed til she was 14 but really it was allowing her the space to feel safe and secure, to understanding herself and her fears, things around dealing with anxiety. short term ADs (which she is so very nearly off now) and recognising the beginning of those anxiety feelings so she can deal with it before it becomes debilitating.
She is 24 now. She is in her 2nd year of Uni. She still struggles but she has been allowed to be in charge of her own pathway. She had other medical issues which mean her chances of employment may not be high, but self employment in her chosen field is much more likely. She is talented and creative, and the charming/social/ find your way to get what you want has proven to be a fantastic asset in networking and selling her wares/services.

Its the support and removal of pressure, whilst keeping certain boundaries which formed a stable and safe foundation for her. If she had stayed in secondary school I am unsure she would be where she was - the overwhelm of the size/demands/social expectations/changing dynamics within social interactions was just far far far too much. Its why I dont really believe in integration in mainstream for all cases - with the best will in the world, its the busy environment and dealing with the NT kids, who dont seem to be able to cope with anyone who steps outside the norm without bullying / excluding / oh your just 'weird' ing which makes it really difficuly.

Similarly my non PDA ASDer had to also be removed from secondary as he was making himself smaller and smaller and starting to self harm. He didnt want to be withdrawn though, and was fortunate enough to get a bursary/scholarship to a very creative small independant, where he flew and now is a wonderful confident, whilst still quirky and def ASDish young man.

I have sympathy with both children, as I have PDA myself.

Yanbu! If I click on a thread (where it's not clear from the title that it's about ND issues) and the OP says "my DD has ASD and..." I usually leave the thread immediately, because as the parent of NT kids there is nothing I can add to the discussion. But some people don't let their complete lack of knowledge stop them from spouting ignorant opinions under the guise of being "helpful" (whether the OP is about neurodiversity or any other topic).

But that said, I do agree with the PP above who pointed out that if people post on AIBU "for traffic", they surely know that a lot of the replies they get will be unhelpful at best and downright ableist at worst (particularly if their OP is describing behaviour from their autistic child that would be unacceptable/punishable if an NT child did it). That's not to say that those people are reasonable in replying in that way, btw!

Nd isn’t due to faulty parenting but the challenges can be exacerbated by a lack of early intervention and/or ‘faulty parenting’ (though I think that’s quite a damaging word to be using)

Honestly, the only people who really understand it is other parents of ND children - and even some of those fall into the trap of comparing their one child's neurodivergence with all other ND children's type of neurodovergence. There's a couple on this thread. "You still have to have expectations, give them consequences, ensure they know in no uncertain terms that their behaviour is inappropriate". Well, no shit, Sherlock.

I'm currently banging the drum for girls with autism who are otherwise "fine at school". Nice, polite girls who work hard, are respectful of their teachers and appear to the untrained eye, fine. No, they're not. What they're often doing is keeping it all in during school hours and completely melting down at home. My dd has drawn blood in her worst moments, I mean literally. She broke a car seat in half escaping from a restraint belt because her school avoidance was so bad.

You know what made the difference to her? It wasn't chastisement (we tried that, which invariably escalated the situation). It was an understanding of her, the things she finds most difficult and working with her to find ways of managing. It was ignoring (in the moment) being told to fuck off. It was giving her a quiet space and some safe things to do to help her re-regulate. It was then talking to her, after the event, to understand what was going on for her in that moment, explain how it made others feels, and work with her to recognise in herself that she needed to take action before getting to the point where she was smashing or throwing things, launching herself at us with her claws out and calling us fucking idiots. She knows right from wrong and is more often ashamed and remorseful about hurting the people she loves the most.

Guess what? Two years down the line, her levels of anxiety are low, she understands herself better, and she's the loveliest, most determined and most empathetic individual I know. The meltdowns are incredibly rare, we have the strongest relationship. And we got there despite of, not because of, all the people who told us repeatedly "try rewards and consequences" like that had never occurred to us.

People's ignorance on here gives me the absolute rage. Luckily, I found my people on the SEN boards instead! On aibu all you'll get is idiocy asking how autistic people cope in Romania.

Each case is individual and therefore different.

Are there autistic children who are raised by parents with excellent parenting skills who still exhibit social poor behaviour? Definitely.

Are there autistic children who show poor social skills whose parents have poor educational skills? Inevitably.

Poor parenting is difficult to define and easy to judge.

@worrywilma

Again in the nicest way. Everyone is very different

Some may not be able to ever work
Some may be able to dip in an out with job breaks if burnout occurs. Many nd people are so good at giving people what they want to hear they can get through an interview. It's the demands of the job that is the sticking point.

Some people can work part time or from home.

Some are amazing at work and high flyers.

Some are actors entrepreneurs creatives Some work in Costa.

However often is will be that if some is amazing at work they often wont carry that over to other life areas. House work. Feeding themselves well and so on.

My dd burnt out of school. She passed GCSEs with no revision. Just her long term memory.
She had a good friendship group but it got too much and she left sixth form before taking her exams.
However she is super brave and pushing herself to try new things. She currently works part time in two jobs. Ones in the arts and one in retail.
She is coping well now.
The rewards of salary and learning something she has an interest in keep her happy (unlike school) plus her art boss is kind and also ND so understands (unlike school)

Maybe she will burn out again one day. She still struggles to feed herself and keep her space tidy She is often late (adhd) she gets irritated easily
She still has struggles but school was an environment that was a step too far.

All NT kids have different needs too.