A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

This needs to be repeated often.

Once a male person, always a male person. No matter what extreme body modifications they have done, they are male.

And it is not just a male person’s penis that is the basis of them being excluded from female single sex spaces.

That is why all this whataboutery that includes ‘I can’t tell’ and ‘what about surgery’ is irrelevant. But unless some people start seeing these types of discussions and why they don’t work, they think that these are strong arguments. Whereas they are actually irrelevant when the reasons as to why male people are excluded are laid bare without the irrelevancies.

No. It has to do with male and female.

There are several male people in my area who, I assume, are transgender and I also correctly sex them too.

For your “That's probably because the majority of time you are seeing a cis man or woman” to work, firstly requires people to only dress and present according to sex stereotypes. Which is not reflective of reality.

And secondly, it is irrelevant. Because transition does not change the movement, skeletal proportions or gait of humans.

You seem to think you only perceive superficial cues about other people. And maybe you do. But others don’t only perceive and evaluate superficial cues of other humans and they probably have a much higher likelihood of correctly sexing a male person and even a high likelihood of correctly sexing a female person who has been on testosterone.

I spotted a transwoman in a group of other women from yards away from behind. They were all wearing the same uniform, all had long hair.

I wasn't looking for him. His gait and his body shape stuck out like a sore thumb amongst the women.

Lucky you that you don’t pay much attention. Do you understand that others do? And that even watching someone move in peripheral vision can give enough body cues to understand who is male and who is female.

I have poor distance vision and I can reliably identify the sex of a person from their gait and often other movement. And from their facial proportions too.

Just because you don’t doesn’t make your experience universal. And if others can tell the difference, and you can’t, why should female people who can tell the difference have their needs dismissed?

A male is a male and looks male, regardless if it 'identifies' as 'c1s' or trans. There is no difference in looks, that's what you don't understand. A male that claims to be a transwoman is a male and looks like a male, the same as any other male.

Scarlet Blake, immediately identifiable as male on black and white CCTV.

And again

we’re talking about keeping TW out of our spaces not because they are trans but because they are men

Bollocks

Cis. Oh puleeaase.

Cis is like having a word for someone who doesnt collect stamps.

No need for it.

And you can take your 2017 arguments and shove it.

Women are allowed to say no to males in their spaces.

And in this particular case Sandie even removed herself from the changing room but even that was seen as wrong by Upton.

The Dr wants to force women to change in front of him. He's an asshole.

That's probably because the majority of time you are seeing a cis man or woman. Less than 1% of the population are trans. I've possibly been near a trans man or women and, because I wasn't paying particular attention to them, had no idea.

Time to dust of these again for the “ooooh but how can you tell??, it’s sooo haaard” brigade”

That was to @OnYerselfHen , the quote didn't go through.

As I said, it is very easy. Every female knows this. We know by even a quick glance. Its an instinct and skill hardwired into women for our survival.

Oh can I count 'inspecting people's bodies' as the 'genital inspections ' square on my bingo card?

Humans are good at telling each others sex. The survival of our species has depended on it. Women are better at it than men, for the obvious reason that our safety often depends on being good at it.

Without careful poses and filters, the vast vast majority of transpeople are clockable. We can all sex the people in this photo.

Trans men as PP said, have it easier here as beard/balding can help plus men aren't as good as women at correctly sexing others (because they don't need to be) so men may not pay as much attention to a stranger in a toilet, changing room etc. Though every trans man I've met seems to be under 5'3" and slight build, which makes it a harder sell. But anyway, in that scenario the transman is choosing to enter the wrong sex setting and the risk is all to the transman, not the rightful occupants, so tis really not the same as the situation under discussion where a 6' plus male has gone into a women's changing room.

Given that it is possible to tell, with a very high degree of accuracy, what sex someone is on blurry black and white CCTV, this idea that it requires close inspection and conscious effort to tell male from female is, IRL, utter nonsense.

People can tell in a split second. We can tell the sex of the person walking behind us without looking at them.

Pains me to have to point this out, but every human alive today is the product of ancestors who were able to accurately sex other humans.

Im saying if im in a cubicle in a bathroom and come out and someone else is either going in another cubicle, or washing their hands, I don't pay much attention to them. They're just in my peripheral that a person exists. I'm definitely not looking to see if they have hips, or a waist or an Adam's Apple.

Ignoring good design clothing, padding, makeup and photo tricks.

Biology is much kinder to women than men in this kind of cosmetic change.

The total interactions of hormones create the "visual" female and male body.

The form /look follows the function. So 'carrying babies but cant birth' kills off females and being stronger results in more mating oppertunities and makes a better helpmate while raising babies gives compeditive advantage. So 2 general shapes.

Online Human proportions calculator are easy to check to see how functional needs have shape how each sex develop.

Male puberty make very visable changes which are hard hide by changing hormone levels. The body cant remove what was created.

Female (post) puberty changes are also fixed however additional "male" hormone build onto the existing foundation.

So ignoring breast/ genitalis and looking at creating outlines women 'pass' by adding bone and changing muscle/fat ratio but men cant loose bone and muscle loss brings up bone, and fat is not structral.

what's to stop any man from walking into the women's changing room and stating that they are trans men?

That is why women are not used in the debate except to argue that woman As choice removes another woman B's choice and forces B to change beside a man.

Who needs to scrutinise?

Last year I got off a train and as I walked up the platform I passed a group of people standing by the train door. They were all wearing trousers, jumpers, jackets and all had very masculine haircuts, much shorter than the pixie cut I've worn in the past. They were standing still, I couldn't hear their voices for the racket of the station, and I was past them in seconds. I could still recognise them as a group of women by face and body shape.

Are you saying you can't tell the difference between male and female? 😶

It's not an attempt to justify anything. It's a genuine question. I don't pay much attention to other people in the toilets or changing room; I'm certainly not checking to see if they have hips or an Adam's Apple.

So if people don't want trans women in women's spaces like changing rooms or bathrooms, how exactly do they tell? If a trans man is allowed in the men's room, how do they distinguish between a trans man and a cis man without scrutinising every person who walks in? And if you have to start inspecting people's bodies or making assumptions based on appearance, where does that stop? Who actually does that? It just doesn't seem practical - or respectful.

My head is reeling!!

That BBC reporting that @BoredZelda quoted is a major part of the problem

It's the justice system maligning SP and may as well be she wore a short skirt

Her character, her husband's FB posts, whatever can be used in the tribunal

It gets picked up by the BBC and amplified by anti women posters

So bad. The whole anti women system needs to go

Exactly. It's in their mitochondria.

It's in person, it is in the MOTION: the gait, not just the voice,

The same applies to TIFs

I know one who does try to walk like a man. She moves like a woman doing a bad imitation of Sergeant Major Williams. That's not mocking, it's an accurate description of her gait.

In the case of the specific legal action (NHS Fife and Sandie Peggie their employee) its 100% funded by the NHS.

From paying someome to write the policy for staff and how to deal with a staff members interactions with a service user who asks for a same sex service etc. To paying for the most senior staff who authoirised the policy changes.

From paying someone to risk assess the staff policy and the service user policy and come up with two different answers and for senior staff choosing not to resolve this problem.

From choosing to ignore the implications for service users in A&E and wider hospital when the staff fear losing their jobs if they try to support user who chooses a same sex medic.

From choosing to run training such that other staff (trained in the need to obtain consent) failed to work out that changing in a room with a member of the oppsate sex is a choice not an obligation.

None of the staff in management positions are at financial risk from choosing to go to the courts.