Waiting for the right guy equals no baby

We don’t. The way to affect change is by hitting society where it hurts

Many women experienced that feeling. Not everyone puts their desires over anything else.

Well, I don't think what we are doing at the moment is working for anyone, is it? Somehow swathes of young men feel disgruntled that they are left off the shelf, swathes of young women feel like men lack the maturity to build a stable relationship and family that they desperately want, and meanwhile we have the highest levels of family breakdown in Europe and the rest of the developed world. I don't know how you un-do that but it's not ideal

I didn’t meet any body, and I’ve checked out. I actually don’t think it’s the end of the world not to have kids. I used to think I would be devastated, and now I’m here I actually have a lovely life. Certainly a lot better than if I had ended up with some of my previous partners.

I know some woman my age who
have had babies last minute with men who have turned out to be irresponsible at best, and downright damaging at worst. Not all of them, but enough that I’m confident that it’s not the route for me. I don’t want to be a single mum, and if I’m honest I wouldn’t feel comfortable using NHS resources in that way- the pull of motherhood just isn’t strong enough for me to justify it.
Why is the survival of the human race put on the shoulders of women even more than it already is?? We’re not broodmares.

I think women do give men far too much time. On Mumsnet time lines you should spend years with a man before expecting a proposal or more likely being told you should propose yourself. I think about a year in is where it's time to assess whether this is a goer or not. You can't just afford to spend 5 years each on say two dud relationships where there is no sign of them wanting to advance to the ring on your finger stage. That's ten valuable years gone. I tell my sons if somebody is not the one, don't waste years of her time.

I think the rights of a baby come above the wants of a woman.

At a population level you have something of a point. At an individual level, Mumsnet is chock-full of women who have ruined their lives by having babies with the wrong men. Emotionally, practically, financially, career-wise, ruined.

Sometimes this transpired later, but in a lot of cases it seems they wanted the kids and that desire over rode any common sense about the consequences.

I'm very against the idea that adult's desires and needs come before wellbeing of children. If someone can't have a child with a right man who is suitable to be a father then they should have no children at all. Or save up enough money to have a child with sperm donor and build their own support network which seems better idea then having a child in wrong relationship.

I think the side effect of that tactic would probably influence men to be more responsible better partners as they would have to step up if they wanted marriage and family and society would be more careful about rasing men well. We expect too little of men and some feel like it allowes them to get away with being crap husbands and fathers.

Wow just wow!! I work with kids and every day I see the fallout of kids feeling unloved, unwanted when their parents relationships break down. Children need stability in their lives.

I think a lot of posters haven't experienced desperately wanting to be a mother, watching friends have babies, knowing that you have a third date with someone you're barely interested in, and even if they are more interesting on date three, it's going to be two or three years before they will commit to being a father to your child. And you're 38.

If I hadn’t met the right man I think I would have
opted to be a single mum. From a young age it’s all I wanted. Of course I pictured the house, husband and kids but if that didn’t happen I think I would have found a way to make it happen.

I don’t advocate having kids with the wrong men but I don’t judge women for having children with a mediocre man at all.

Just to add, there is no such thing as a perfect man, but plenty out there that'll tick enough boxes. Main thing is to get someone with plenty of cash as that makes up for so many irritations lol.

OP, will a woman not have a baby with you?

A less-than-perfect partner does not have to equal a shite partner, or indeed a deadbeat father.

Absolutely, who wants to be the child in that situation. All because mum was so desperate for a baby that the common sense went out the window with the contraceptive pills.

I mean, for the whole of history there has been women having babies with the wrong men. This is not a new phenomenon. There is also a whole spectrum between being so ultra picky that you don't meet a single person who comes up to scratch, and being like a well known fake chested reality "star" whose MO is to have a baby with every casual fling.

I'm sure that there are plenty of useless men out there - they seem to pop up in every other Mumsnet thread. But let's also not forget that women (esp. middle class women) are typically hypergamous, that is they date or marry men of equal or higher social status than themselves.

What's going to happen when you have masses of young men lost to the online world, lost in gaming, doing far worse in school than girls, attending University in far fewer numbers than women, being told that their masculinity is the source of most of societies problems, and then being outcompeted in the workplace by independent and successful women? The pool of available, eligible, attractive men for increasingly successful, ambitious, hypergamous women is shrinking.

Yes, i'm sure British men can and need to do better. But before we demonise them too much, maybe we need to re-think our perception of what Mr Right looks like? Instead of positive portrayals of men who are less outwardly successful than their partners, but still hard working and caring and great partners, we get Kevin from Motherland - played for laughs.

Why are you singling out British men!
Why singling men all together? They are many women who turn out to be very shitty mothers...

Exactly. It's no-one's right to have a child and I don't think the human race is in danger of dying out any time soon.

My father was not useless, lazy or a half-wit, but still fucked me up by being supremely emotionally absent even though he was physically present. You need a good solid relationship to raise children who don't require years of therapy in later life.

I actually think it's morally wrong to have a baby with someone who has shown signs that they might be a shitty dad. It's selfish, sorry.
I think the threads on here where a woman is deciding whether to keep a baby conceived to a man who has already shown his true colours are actually disturbing, lots of people going 'go it alone, it's the best thing I ever did' - encouraging a woman to have a baby that means potentially tying herself to contact with an awful man for 18 years? Encouraging a woman to actively and knowingly inflicting an awful man on an innocent child? Its horrible to read.

Obvious disclaimer that I shouldn't have to make: No, I'm not talking about you having a baby with your ex husband was the perfect man until you got pregnant. No, I'm not talking about people in abusive relationships. That's great you don't know anyone in real life whose had a baby with someone they know is shit, but your experience is not everyone's. Yes, society and patriarchy are to blame for this but its damaging to the cause to suggest that women have no agency, and no I'm not bloody victim blaming by saying that, I'm saying we need to stop pretending everything's going to turn out fine because your cousin was, or your aunties husband really stepped up, or your friends ex just disappeared etc etc.

"between 30 to 40% of women are expected to end up childless (involuntarily) because they were searching for the right guy."

where is this information from?

About 30 years ago, I watched a really lovely female friend lower the bar further and further until she found someone who would commit to a long term relationship and have a child.

She eventually found him (he was punching waaaaaaaay above his weight) they married, had a baby and she was happy for a good 15 years. He wasn't perfect, but she enjoyed being married and was obviously delighted with her healthy son. They are now divorced but he wasn't abusive or anything, they just grew apart.

But even back then, getting a man to commit before your ovaries had given up forever, was no mean feat.

That is such a horrible view! I believe that if you're not safe and are not confident the father of your child will be a good dad, then don't have kids with him. Even if that means going for a sperm donor and be a lone parent, or not become a parent at all. You do not have the child's best interests at heart with your thinking. Alarming.

I think the "fucked as a race" comment may be a bit ott, there are roughly 600k born in the UK each year and a similar number of deaths.
Worldwide 62m die each year and 132m born, so you don't need to be concerned over much about bringing a baby into the world with a duff dad because there are plenty others breeding regardless. Better to give the kid a chance with someone up and together.

Some women do have children in ideal circumstances. They picked a good, if not perfect man, and got on with it. Strangely there used to be this quaint idea that a man should be able to support a family and they wouldn't get married till they could. There is something to be said for this view - it saves women from wasting their eggs and time on dating useless men.