To consider working for the NHS?

This sums it up. I am clinical, worked in the NHS for 25 years. Mostly London hospitals... above grade 8 there are crazy batshit jobs and I can honestly tell you I have no idea what they do, why they were created! So this answer is very plausible.

As for bullying. More common in senior roles but does not exist in every trust. Some are worse than others, a lot!

I would not risk it. There are other ways to contribute to society than IT in the NHS.

Just on the subject of points on the pay band, OP, if they want you, they will negotiate, even though the starting point is often to say that everyone has to start on the bottom of the pay band.

There are issues across the NHS around workplace culture, bullying and management structures where incompetent or bullying staff are protected/promoted. It's not everywhere. Some Trusts and some departments are particularly bad. If you are still considering this move after reading the comments on the thread, please do your homework about the particular Trust and team you would potentially be joining. I was in a management role with potential to progress further and I stepped down because of these issues. I was being sabotaged and undermined at every hand and turn. It took years for them to manage out the main culprit, who was promoted 4 times before being made redundant. This is not a problem with one person - it's organisational culture. I hear this repeatedly as a theme from others. The NHS Trusts have all the right policies and guidance, but they are not implemented and nepotism/cliques rule.

Could someone put this thread in front of Wes Streeting?

My DH is in a director role in NHS and hasn’t experienced anything like this. It’s great flexibility and he and his boss above both do childcare jobs they need to, WFH etc. Decent people.

I worked for a long time at a local hospital - the atmosphere was good most of the senior people were hardworking and generally pleasant. However there were a few people (eg our head of department) who were quite lazy and useless but we're being carried by the next layer down who for some reason were happy to carry the person and cover for the fact that they were never on site (this was pre WFH days).
We merged with another trust and a large proportion of the people from the other trust were nasty bullies from 8a upwards. The most senior banded of these are now at director and deputy director level and are forever on linked in singing their own praises.

Nailed it.

@NHSMaybe I wouldn't touch NHS IT/Digital with a barge pole at National or Regional level. Maybe at Trust or ICB level if you do your homework and check out the local arrangements and leadership.

Nationally it is incredibly toxic at the moment, and likely to go through yet another restructure (announced last week). At 8d and above it is more like a final episode of Traitors - the backstabbing and politics are what takes up most of your time. Nationally and locally, contracts and procurement take forever to negotiate, there is never enough money so you are lucky if you manage to realise even 10% of what you hoped to when you first take on the job and staff morale is generally through the floor. Everything in the system is designed to prevent you from doing a good job.

HR policies are dire if you have underperforming staff above and below you, but great on paper if you need flexibility. However, the reality is how the policies around flexible working are interpreted is very dependent on your boss, and if they don't follow the policies they are pretty much safe to do whatever they like because the HR system is slow and tired and demands very little accountability for senior staff, and keeps staff in work regardless of whether they can do the job. You are constantly working with one or both arms tied behind your back.

Stick where you are or look at some of the other social good places to work.

@NHSMaybe

The tech. OMG. I am a senior manager and I can’t get a laptop from IT that actually starts up without rebooting 10 times first. IT gaslight me - apparently it’s not a problem and is not abnormal. No acknowledgment that they bought a job lot of shit incompatible tech. I have had a replacement laptop which is exactly the same. Given one screen by IT for wfh (not allowed two, far too indulgent) - it was smashed when I inspected it.

Microsoft 365? A version of Excel that is less than 10 years old? Forget it.

Failing to join a teams meeting while in the office = my fault. Despite hot desks missing vital IT equipment to enable me to connect. Think half leads with a plug but with the usb section missing. And vice versa. And meeting rooms with no screen, no wifi and no connectivity - lots of meeting rooms like this.

Managing team performance? Objectives? We don’t even have software for it. Managing someone who is underperforming is useless nonsense - so many excuses from above to get you to stop the process. This is for someone who has been with the organisation less than a year, let alone two years.

To say it is in the 90’s would be generous. 80’s perhaps.

The culture is the worst. There’s an underlying inference that you’re imagining how bad it all is, it’s all in your head and everyone else is coping so much better than you.

We have people recruited in from the private sector because “change is needed”. They leave, fast, if they possibly can.

Don’t make the move through any altruistic need. You’ll regret it.

Think long and hard about joining the NHS. It’s not all it’s cracked up to be.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7287gxn7m3o.amp

No I was a senior clerical officer. I worked on reception at A&E, Medical Records and the Pharmacy. My partner was a manager but left after 20 years to join the law.

I’m a civil servant and I love being one, but in your situation I absolutely wouldn’t. I don’t know much about the NHS but in my dept (and I am quite confident to say all) the red tape and slow pace things move is so frustrating. Especially tech. A colleague who joined last year from the private sector said she thought she had gone back to the dinosaur era!

I’m guessing you’re one of the managers haha

Not one of the front line clinicians whose priority is actually delivering patient care

QED

IMHO (from making a similar move which caused nothing but stress and misery):

Don’t do it.
At that level (8+) it is awash with under performers who have worked in the NHS for decades and been promoted through the management grades as it is the only way for their bosses to get rid of them from a department.
COVID and the move to hybrid made things even worse.

Frontline clinicians certainly deserve our respect.

BUT the unbelievably tangled web of ‘directors’ seems to be a job creation spiral for the many lazy, talentless hangers on who will never be sacked for underperformance.

They also create ‘special projects’ when needed to make sure the level 8+ admins keep their salaries whatever restructuring or efficiency improvements are attempted.

They are unsurprisingly very protective of the system they have created hence the culture of bullying.

Just my opinion of course!

Ridiculously hard to fire people. Whether it's underperformance, prolifically off sick, bullying, people just don't get sacked. You usually find the bullies get promoted 🙄

I never experienced any bullying and neither did my partner and he worked for the NHS for over 20 years as a Patients Services Manager If anyone was a bully it was senior consultants some of which had a ‘god complex’. I am speaking from my experience I worked at 2 hospitals. My partner worked at 10 hospitals up and down the UK

I disagree not all managers are shit. However the worse managers are doctors because they have no idea how to budget. All managers have to stick to a budget and the doctor/managers I knew always wanted to overspend. The NHS will always be on its knees and needs a radical overhaul imho

I used to work for the private sector before working for the NHS. I found that they look after their employees very well I was able to see a doctor fairly quickly if I had a health problem. For example I trapped a nerve in my foot and saw someone within hours. Also their pension scheme is very good and you can freeze it or take a lump sum if you leave the NHS. I worked in 2 departments and found them interesting and I enjoyed serving the public. My other half also worked for them for over 20 years as a manager but decided to change careers but he will still get his pension at 60.

This. No longer any benefits or perks. They changed the "good" pension a couple of years ago or so.

Why is it hard to fire people though? The same employment laws apply in the NHS and the private sector.

I'm in ops. I wouldn't do anything else, despite all the shit I love it still but if you've not worked in the nhs before I doubt you'd enjoy it.

@Foxgloverr Nigh on impossible.

What really winds me up is the relentless bleating from upper management of the “self-care” and “be kind” and “inclusive” dogma at every turn when you know they’re all just talking out their arses and none of the corporate team actually practice what they preach. It’s messy out there. Change is slow, the cliques look after their own.

The only place I ever worked in were the Managers got away with bullying. Didnt stay long, which was a shame as loved my job, but couldn't cope with theo the dog eat dog culture

Why does the NHS attract so many bullies? Is it hard to fire people?

You would probably do a lot more good donating the difference in salary to a reputable charity.

Don't. If you value your sanity just don't. My DH has retired after working all his life for them. I was so glad he could, as his manager was bullied into ill health, I didn't want that to happen to him. My son works for them, and he has experienced bullying the like of which I have never seen or heard of before. Just don't

Do you truthfully believe you could make a positive impact in this role? That's what I would really think about. Because that is your main reason for change and many highly paid non clinical roles in the nhs don't really have any genuine positive impact on patients at all.