Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

@ErrolTheDragon was I think referring to undergrads, who are very much in a clear majority at both Oxford and Cambridge. would it help if I posted the numbers and percentages from HESA@LondonLawyer. more than happy to do so if that would be helpful. Errol has already posted one of the Oxbridge links but HESA provides a neat little table covering every UK uni.

Others had been educated in English medium schools in various countries

Or schools that split the curriculum 50/50 between the native language and English.

Or schools that teach all subjects in the native language but English is taught as a second language from about the age of 3.

And it’s good you’ve brought up English medium schools - where I live families who put their children into these schools are not entitled to scholarships just as families who put their children into what could be considered other expensive fee paying schools are usually not given scholarships either because of the advantages they have.

Scholarships for the most part go to students who’ve gone through the government school system as well as those who are at other disadvantages. These schools would be government schools with children being taught English from grade 1 but if they go to a nursery beforehand it would be taught there from about 3.

Yes that's true of some of my undergraduates, but definitely not all.

Surely that’s more a commentary on your observational skills though. 😀

Undergrads at St Andrews, most recent year for which those pesky facts also known as data published at www.hesa.ac.uk

Total Undergrads 9560

Scottish 2835 29.7%

English 2390 25%

RUK 240 2.5%

UK. 5465 57.2%

International 4095. 42.8%

Edinburgh undergrads

Scottish 34%

All UK 67%

international 33%

now in terms of fee income split that would look very different.

My experience with international undergraduate students was that many of them had actually been educated in the UK public school system, though obviously not all. Others had been educated in English medium schools in various countries.

Lecturing staff are often under huge pressure to pass international students as they are so valuable to the universities - if they went home having failed their course it would become known and impact on their ability to recruit other students.

This absolutely not true at my university

I'm repeated amazed by just how good the English of almost all our international students is. Both written and spoken. We don't really make any allowances and the average standard is not noticeably different than our UK students. Just a little more formal (which isn't necessarily a bad thing!) and sometimes using a turn of phrase that wouldn't normally by a native speaker. But it's pretty subtle. Astonishing really when most of them are over here for the first time aged 18.

Lecturers are not "under huge pressure to pass international students". There's probably a more lenient approach to students in general these days in UK universities - with pressures on staff to cater to students with 'wellbeing issues' and more flexible approaches to mitigating circumstances requests. But there's no pressure to pass international students specifically, due to their having paid more fees - or if there is, it's isolated cases, not a 'huge' issue.

@Weepixie thank you for answering my question.

I grant unlikely at Oxford.

I'm pretty sure the comments about "inadequate English" do not remotely apply to any of the international students who've got through the Oxbridge aptitude tests and interviews. I doubt any with inadequate English would survive supos and the rigours of their exams either.

A little off topic, but flawless GCSE results are not necessarily the best indicator of academic ability/potential at a higher level. A few years ago I taught an undergraduate who didn't just get the top grade in every GCSE that she took, but literally got 100% in every GCSE. She was a very average Oxford undergraduate, not a star at all. GCSEs are not actually intellectually stretching for many students and some of the very smartest students will make some mistakes that bring their marks down relative to slightly less smart but more careful students. And I know many truly brilliant academics whose GCSE or A level results were at a more middling level.

Not that I think we have any guaranteed way to choose the very best students given the time and resources available to us.

Inadequate English? Do you know the level of English required to study in the UK?

Are you aware of the industry out there faking these results? Or tried teaching students with supposedly adequate English and tried marking their exam scripts? Or just held a conversation with them? There are huge numbers of students without adequate English attending UK universities. A PP even noted her university having to pay for translators.

And are you saying that universities are in cahoots with students to pass them because a community back home paid their fees?

Lecturing staff are often under huge pressure to pass international students as they are so valuable to the universities - if they went home having failed their course it would become known and impact on their ability to recruit other students.

Speaking as a tutor closely involved in Oxford undergraduate decisions, it is simply because the aim is to admit the brightest, regardless of background or nationality. There are no quotas or targets and no intended bias either in favour of international students or against them. The only exception is medicine where the government restricts the number of international students. If you look at the statistics, International applicants are less likely to be offered an Oxford place than UK students, but I think that is partly a result of them applying to the more competitive courses, and partly because some such students less well advised on where/how to apply.

I also don't think it is at all clear that reserving more places for UK students would be beneficial for the country, for a number of reasons. There is the direct financial benefit of fees from international students. But also many highly skilled international students stay and benefit the UK economy and those who return maintain valuable connections. Moreover, having access to the best students makes UK university institutions better.

And in broad global terms, I think the world is a better place if young people (actually, all people) are free to study and work internationally and alongside others from all over the world. Thanks Brexit.

It is often not just parents who are paying the bills, but extended family or sometimes a community

Yes, very true. And it’s common for older siblings to pay for a younger siblings studies once they’re back from studying abroad and earning.

Inadequate English? Do you know the level of English required to study in the UK?

And are you saying that universities are in cahoots with students to pass them because a community back home paid their fees?

It is often not just parents who are paying the bills, but extended family or sometimes a community. This puts an awful lot of pressure on some of the international students to succeed - and in turn on universities to pass them despite their inadequate English and it being clear they have not engaged with the course.

and those whose families can pay for them might be from the governing elite with dubious money

I think in the old days this could have been true but I would say if it happens today those students will be in the minority.

I would say the majority are on scholarships or funded by parents who both work in professional roles above a certain level and who make sacrifices to educate their children. And of course there are very wealthy people educating their children abroad but I would say very few parents are paying the bills without wincing.

@Weepixie - yes...I would think the students themselves who apply to the particularly competitive stem and economics degrees should be able to explain the statistics to their parents!

"Very much the majority" is pushing it - 41% of Cambridge students are non-UK. So a majority are UK, but not by all that much. UCL is now about half and half.

I said at UG level, which is currently a bit over 75% home if I've done the sums on acceptances in section 3 right https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/publications/ugadmissionssstatistics20233cycle.pdf.

I'd call that a significant majority.

It's only the UG proportion which is relevant to the OP's DH's complaint, and his DS is unlikely to want to do a PG masters after an MEng.

From what the OP has said, her DS very likely is 'bright enough' - but so are several times as many applicants for each place. He may well be brighter than some of those who do get places. (I've said this before, because it's true.)

My comment wasn’t in any way intended as a put down regarding the young lads abilities. Yes he seems like a fantastic candidate but it just hasn’t worked out for him and dad who wants to lash out has decided it’s down to the foreign students.

The higher education thread has loads of posts at certain times of the year regarding extremely high achievers missing out on places at these universities and parents not understanding why. It’s very sad and a lot to process for the family.

If students from poor countries returned home to boost their countries that would be good. Sadly, from what I've read, a few obtain visas to work in the UK but many just overstay student visas and and end up as modern-day slaves, like delivering pizzas, or they go off to other first world countries with good salaries. Going home to peanuts is not enticing! It's worth noting that many foreign students are on scolarships from abroad and those whose families can pay for them might be from the governing elite with dubious money.

Sorry, not answering your question because I haven't a clue BUT it sounds like the kind of thing we, oldies, used to march about with placards?? There must be soo many kids in your son's position. Maybe he should start a Facebook group anonymously since he'll be in prison for racism otherwise. Mind you, prisons probably have automatic entrance to OxBridge!

"Very much the majority" is pushing it - 41% of Cambridge students are non-UK. So a majority are UK, but not by all that much. UCL is now about half and half.

From what the OP has said, her DS very likely is 'bright enough' - but so are several times as many applicants for each place. He may well be brighter than some of those who do get places. (I've said this before, because it's true.)

For the students who do get places at oxbridge, the international students add diversity - certainly DDs 'friendship group' spanned quite a few nationalities - but 'home' students are very much the majority at UG level.

Are these courses attended by people from English speaking countries, or also, say in Germany, by Germans or other nationalities who can speak English?

The courses are attended by anyone from anywhere who has the entry qualifications and level of English required to do the course.

English is the international language of so many fields that lots of countries nowadays do offer further education in English.

So for eg, one of my Arabic speaking grandchildren who’s also fluent in English is considering a university in Madrid where the course is done in English. Holland is another place currently popular as is Germany but the latter not as much as before.

There’s an entire procedure the students go through to prove they have the qualifications required for the course as well as the finances. They also go through UCAS when applying.

And where does their funding come from - my children and now the eldest of my grandchildren have been funded privately by us. Lots of students are self funded. Others are funded by their governments who provide scholarships.

It’s not as if the students pay with green shield stamps and get into Uni just because.