Page 16 | Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

Berlinerschnauzer · 2025-01-31T16:32:51+00:00

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge… I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point. Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter. Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis. Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks --as per usual -- ?

Rainingalldayonmyhead · 31/01/2025 19:01

The answer is obvious and has been cited many times. Money. This isn’t even a question.

What you may need to realise is that every top university in the world has foreign students. That’s just the way it is. Oxbridge aren’t reserved for British kids. In the same way Brits will
go to Harvard, or MIT or Yale.

NormaleKartoffeln · 31/01/2025 18:58

Money.

Alaimo · 31/01/2025 18:58

IdaGlossop · 31/01/2025 18:17

I really feel for students who graduate with debts of c.£50,000 from lower tariff universities. It does feel like they are being ripped off when they are paying the same as Oxbridge/Russell Group for an inferior experience. The contact hours argument is tricky. Arts and humanities subjects require intensive reading so high contact hours would not be welcome for most students.

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I have an undergraduate degree from a middling non-RG university. I also have a Master's and PhD from a RG university, and taught at two different high-ranking RG universities. In my experience the teaching at the non-RG university was on par, and at times better than what I have seen at RG universtities, including more contact time with senior academics rather than PhD students.

ElatedShark · 31/01/2025 18:57

They attract the best of the best and maintain their reputation thanks in part to the top crop of international students who produce results. Or did you think they just pay and then can't keep up with the courses.

Your son is just not good enough to compete against home students, let alone international ones!

Not sure why his dads blaming foreigners, that's life.

The entitlement is hilarious

NewFriendlyLadybird · 31/01/2025 18:56

eightIsNewNine · 31/01/2025 18:49

The different level is partially caused by different high school leaving age.

England stops general education quite early (15), than focus on A levels and end at 17. Some countries continue general education (at least for academical tracks) till 17/18/19, so the high school leavers naturally are more mature and have better knowledge of practically everything.

When I worked with recent UK bachelor graduates, I was confused by their lack of general knowledge and maturity compared to university students in my country. When I learned about the age difference, everything started to make sense. They were just younger.

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Well, I mean, you’re wrong.

Plantatreetoday · 31/01/2025 18:56

I would have thought the answer to this thread is obvious.

International students pay more!

Barbadossunset · 31/01/2025 18:54

It was only with the decline of the aristocracy and the need to attract the (upper) middle classes funding did academic outcomes become important.

I am sure that is true but was it also partly because in the 1970s galloping inflation meant school fees shot up and therefore parents who were forking out larger sums wanted to get good results for their money?

StormingNorman · 31/01/2025 18:53

International students pay more.

Littoralzone · 31/01/2025 18:53

I was discussing the decline in international students with a senior member of university staff recently. He put this down to other countries/universities upping their game rather than anything to do with Visa. There is much more competition for students now. Plus things like marking strikes so students don’t graduate at the right time (and therefore losing job/further study opportunities) hitting reputations both of individual universities and uk universities more generally.

R053 · 31/01/2025 18:53

I went to university in the days when there were fewer international students and we were given both tuition and maintenance grants. But back then, far fewer domestic students went to university. I can still remember how astounded I was at the percentage of students who had a public or private school background. So it was much more elite back then.

Today, more domestic students go to university full stop because of student loans (introduced in my final year!) and the international students. So if there were no international students, the government is definitely going to either cut domestic places as well or make the cost of them prohibitive for ordinary Joes.

Briannaco · 31/01/2025 18:52

loonyloo · 31/01/2025 18:50

I'd add to that and say that I work in a university department where we have one masters course that is about 99% international students. The fee income from that course is so high that it basically keeps us afloat. It enables us to run courses that are 99% UK students that would otherwise be financially unviable. It's in a subject that would be considered vital/a public good by most people.

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So can UK students not get on this masters course?

Do you only take in international students into it?

And do you not take academic grades into account , for admission?

Barbadossunset · 31/01/2025 18:51

I can't express how mediocre most British private school kids' education is compared to the rigour I see here. It's shocking to me, as it wasn't always thus. So much dumbing down. (I have relatives and friends' children to look at.)

Don’t all schools -matte and private - have to teach the syllabus for GCSEs and A levels? So if there is dumbing down surely that’s because the syllabus has been dumbed down?

loonyloo · 31/01/2025 18:50

Whoarethoseguys · 31/01/2025 16:42

All universities need to attract foreign students . They need the money and wouldn't exist without them.
It's a false argument to say they are taking places from home grown students because without the foreign students that course might not exist. That applies as much to Oxbridge and the Russel Group Universities as to other universities

I'd add to that and say that I work in a university department where we have one masters course that is about 99% international students. The fee income from that course is so high that it basically keeps us afloat. It enables us to run courses that are 99% UK students that would otherwise be financially unviable. It's in a subject that would be considered vital/a public good by most people.

Dorisbonson · 31/01/2025 18:50

Berlinerschnauzer · 31/01/2025 16:41

I’m actually talking about the best unis. The prestigious already massively wealthy unis. Not Bolton or Derby.

The best universities are ranked highly because of high quality research, international collaboration, business impact and other factors.

Research costs money, good researchers like expensive facilities and don't like teaching students.

Endowments are funded by donations for specific things - philanthropists, alumni and corporates give money for specific purposes. It often helps fund research, innovation, entrepreneurship and support programmes and things which governments and tuition fees don't pay for.

eightIsNewNine · 31/01/2025 18:49

dizzydizzydizzy · 31/01/2025 18:31

DC1 has just graduated from Imperial. Also massive number (30%?) of international students, with the majority being from China. Imperial is clearly rolling in cash and lavishes it on the students. DC1 had jobs at the uni for up to £17/hour and also was given a grant of 2k a year because our income was under £60k.

I am personally not convinced that imperial needs the money from the international students. I wouldn't be surprised if they get much more money from consulting services, especially in computing.

One thing I would say is that DC1 always said they were massively behind all the international students, especially in maths, even though DC1 did 4 A Levels, all with Astar. From what DC1 was saying, the A Level equivalent abroad is a far higher standard. So maybe part of the reason for top universities having international students is due to their quality?

I also think that Oxbridge and Imperial are top ranking universities worldwide, so students want to come for the prestige. Also it helps that the teaching language is English - everyone learns English.

The different level is partially caused by different high school leaving age.

England stops general education quite early (15), than focus on A levels and end at 17. Some countries continue general education (at least for academical tracks) till 17/18/19, so the high school leavers naturally are more mature and have better knowledge of practically everything.

When I worked with recent UK bachelor graduates, I was confused by their lack of general knowledge and maturity compared to university students in my country. When I learned about the age difference, everything started to make sense. They were just younger.

Littoralzone · 31/01/2025 18:48

I can't express how mediocre most British private school kids' education is compared to the rigour I see here. It's shocking to me, as it wasn't always thus. So much dumbing down. (I have relatives and friends' children to look at.)

Top private schools, like Eton and Harrow, historically were very mediocre academically as they educated the upper classes who went on to run their estates, so academia wasn’t needed but the school provided the necessary contacts. It was only with the decline of the aristocracy and the need to attract the (upper) middle classes funding did academic outcomes become important.

Briannaco · 31/01/2025 18:48

I that universities are a scam in some ways.

It's all about making money for them and getting students into debt

Ubertomusic · 31/01/2025 18:47

Onlyonekenobe · 31/01/2025 18:41

There is a lot of truth in this.

I went to a top 3 private school in the UK.

Undergrad at Oxbridge equivalent in UK (v niche).

Masters at Oxbridge equivalent abroad.

Now live in a 3rd country, educating my DC at Westminster-equivalent school.

I can't express how mediocre most British private school kids' education is compared to the rigour I see here. It's shocking to me, as it wasn't always thus. So much dumbing down. (I have relatives and friends' children to look at.)

Add to that the weird obsession in the UK with state versus private, Oxbridge versus RG versus other. Parents lose their minds over the most minor things, not seeing the wood for the trees, while also resting on decades-old laurels.

The rest of the world has moved on in leaps and bounds. It's like they're all driving Maclaren supercars (at the top levels) while the UK is chugging along in its good old vintage Jag. Of course, there are absolutely stellar homegrown British students, but nowhere near as many as there were 30-odd years ago and DEFINITELY not compared to worldwide competition.

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For STEM - yes, I agree 100%. Classics and some humanities can be a different story.

creamsnugjumper · 31/01/2025 18:47

I posted about this about 18 months ago as my sons creative course is 80% overseas students who can't speak english, they will openly admit they come to the UK to get an "easy" degree and then go home and never use it – Meanwhile my sons teaching is way behind where he should be as the tutors are managing the language issues best they can.. with no translators at all

I was told they should have passed some English tests but its appears that many unis skip that.

I did on that thread get called all kinds of names, but basically without the overseas students his Uni would close, just seems such a bloody waste of time and effort and its made his whole very expensive experience a bit poo and had we known about the issues wouldn't have selected that uni.

Ubertomusic · 31/01/2025 18:44

dizzydizzydizzy · 31/01/2025 18:31

DC1 has just graduated from Imperial. Also massive number (30%?) of international students, with the majority being from China. Imperial is clearly rolling in cash and lavishes it on the students. DC1 had jobs at the uni for up to £17/hour and also was given a grant of 2k a year because our income was under £60k.

I am personally not convinced that imperial needs the money from the international students. I wouldn't be surprised if they get much more money from consulting services, especially in computing.

One thing I would say is that DC1 always said they were massively behind all the international students, especially in maths, even though DC1 did 4 A Levels, all with Astar. From what DC1 was saying, the A Level equivalent abroad is a far higher standard. So maybe part of the reason for top universities having international students is due to their quality?

I also think that Oxbridge and Imperial are top ranking universities worldwide, so students want to come for the prestige. Also it helps that the teaching language is English - everyone learns English.

In case of Imperial it's not just money - you admit yourself that international students are much more advanced in maths (STEM in general, in fact) than British. Imperial needs them for brains.
Do they still need Imperial - that's an interesting question...

Briannaco · 31/01/2025 18:43

They make more money from international students.

savethatkitty · 31/01/2025 18:43

Quite simple really. Money.

Ceramiq · 31/01/2025 18:43

IdaGlossop · 31/01/2025 18:28

The CEFR (used to assess a student's level of language proficiency, for those who don't know) isn't a sound measure. All it does is show the a student has reached a particular level academically. That's very different from being immersed in a language for hours every day and having active language skills capable of responding fluently to any ituation that occurs. It's unfair on domestic students whose learning is impeded by international students not fluent in English.

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I think that the problem with the CEFR levels is that universities set the bar too low. Students who get 8/9 overall are usually pretty fluent. Not those who get 7/9 overall. There's a massive difference between the two.

loonyloo · 31/01/2025 18:42

ExtraOnions · 31/01/2025 16:42

Money money money .. that’s it really. Not just Oxford & Cambridge, all uni’s - even the ones that aren’t very good. People who come over an a student visa, and never leave

Well that's not true. The vast majority of international students are from China and (generally) they have no interest in remaining in the UK after graduation. The degree is a means to an end for them - a British education is a prestigious thing to have, it provides them with an international experience not unlike a gap year, and they go home to get good jobs.

The student visa rules are strict, and attendance/engagement with studies is monitored. Students who aren't engaging can be removed from the UK.

Students are only allowed to remain in the UK for a short period of time after completing their studies - basically enough time to attend a graduation ceremony (family members can attend as long as they get tourist visas, plus theg stay in hotels and spend money celebrating in restaurants etc).
There is a graduate visa but it is only for 2 years after successfully completing studies, and is £820 plus an NHS fee of £1035.

It's not that easy, or cheap to stay after graduation even if the students want to.

The other big market for international students was India, but that all but collapsed when it became harder to stay in the UK post-graduation. Those students are interested in remaining in the country they complete their studies in and using their skills there. So they started looking at USA, Canada, Australia instead.

Onlyonekenobe · 31/01/2025 18:41

Hitheretoo · 31/01/2025 17:49

While international fees may be a factor, the short answer is that British students don’t measure up internationally. I have firsthand experience of this. Oxbridge grad and from the school in another country that recently outranked Eton as Oxbridge’s No 1 feeder school.

Despite being a state school with mostly government subsidised fees and open to all, my alma mater was misreported as a private school by the British press - to much outrage on Twitter and Mumsnet about rich international students IIRC. Brits simply can’t wrap their minds around the idea that you don’t have to pay wadloads of money to get a good education.

In Britain, because the best pre-university education is open to the richest rather than the brightest, the Oxbridge crop is also less promising. Generally it’s observed by international students that their British peers at Oxbridge have posh accents, massive amounts of confidence and not much else. Not to use too broad a brush of course; I’ve met plenty of brilliant British students in my time.

Besides which, in fields like Mathematics and Science, if you pluck any average student back home out, they’re literally years ahead of British students. The pace and complexity of the curriculum is totally different.

There is a lot of truth in this.

I went to a top 3 private school in the UK.

Undergrad at Oxbridge equivalent in UK (v niche).

Masters at Oxbridge equivalent abroad.

Now live in a 3rd country, educating my DC at Westminster-equivalent school.

I can't express how mediocre most British private school kids' education is compared to the rigour I see here. It's shocking to me, as it wasn't always thus. So much dumbing down. (I have relatives and friends' children to look at.)

Add to that the weird obsession in the UK with state versus private, Oxbridge versus RG versus other. Parents lose their minds over the most minor things, not seeing the wood for the trees, while also resting on decades-old laurels.

The rest of the world has moved on in leaps and bounds. It's like they're all driving Maclaren supercars (at the top levels) while the UK is chugging along in its good old vintage Jag. Of course, there are absolutely stellar homegrown British students, but nowhere near as many as there were 30-odd years ago and DEFINITELY not compared to worldwide competition.