To think that parents should face the judge when their child commits a heinous crime?

You are talking about people who probably barely acknowledge their children live with them and regard them as a nuisance. Food, clothes, schooling, emotional needs, friends, security, kindness.

These kids live with parents who think because a takeaway is made available and they don't "make" their kids go to school that they doing a good job. And the chances are there will be low level of domestic abuse or addiction somewhere.

Children know when they aren't cared for. It's just that they can do nothing about it. By the time you've got serious criminal offences by the kids the chances of changing things are tiny.

Possibly not. Same as parents don’t always realise their kids have been groomed into drug running until the kids are totally embroiled in it. They can’t just say they’re not going to do it anymore as the threat of a beating or worse is there always.
Some parents don’t actually care that much

I've been thinking about teenager muggers and if their parents know about what they do.

I’ve worked with troubled kids and often, not always, there have been neglectful parents. Sounds a cliche but poor living conditions, no nurture, poor school attendance and a distrust of authority figures can make life very very challenging for the kids. However, education prior to problems is the way forward. Many of the neglectful parents were parented that way and think it’s normal. They don’t or can’t, fear of change, access learning or information on how to parent better. Punishing them won’t change anything and they will blame school, social care, gp and anyone they have had involvement with.
Parenting classes should be taught in school alongside sex education. Children should not be viewed as something everyone has, they should be wanted, hopefully planned for though not essential, nurtured and listened to.
The cycle can be broken but there needs to the political will .
Mental health services need more investment and youth services, which seem to get less funding every year, need money to work with kids from tweens upwards.
I’ve met many a parent who should never have had children but I had to temper my anger/frustration and look at their background.
I am also a hang them and flog them advocate when it comes to pardophiles and child murderers though. For some there is no hope.

Btw I think the issue is often neglect rather than active abuse. If you want to look at poor parenting and criminalise, you would be look at people who don't feed their children, or clothe them. Or fail to get them to school. There are a whole list of red flags for a neglectful parent, and some are not taken as seriously as they should be.

No, for 2 reasons.

1- it's virtually impossible to get any kind of help for your kid when there's something going on, let alone preemptively.

2- in general it's going to be the mums up in court to blame for these things, there will be no mention of the dad.

Obviously in circumstances where the parents have covered up a crime etc that will be a charge in itself.

The problem with this is how?

Lots of people produce children and then raise them very badly. They neglect or actively abuse them.

Btw these parents would think they are good people. Their standards may be completely different from yours.

I've met neglectful and abusive parents during my career and they all thought they were good people. They had zero insight into how they may have contributed to their child's dysfunctional and then criminal behaviour

I know several parents who have literally begged for someone, anyone to help them. Are you going to haul the LA and all the other services over the coals too? Those specific parents probably feel a great deal of guilt already and you want them publicly blamed and hauled into court? There are absolutely parents who bare some blame, but many who try really hard to get help, when will they be judged to have tried hard enough? How many services have to knock them back? How many times should they have begged SS and MH services and their GP for help? When is enough?

No I don't think so.

It's way too complex.

Yes there a terrible parents out there who don't give a shit what their kids are up to, some will even encourage bad behaviour. But there will be parents who are doing all they can, they might be working long hours too to keep a roof over their heads. Getting very little help from services.

Then there will be parents who have learning difficulties or disabilities themselves and have been struggling to parent. Absent fathers too where a single mum might have been struggling to cope alone.

If you prosecute the ye parents, what about the other siblings in their care? One child might have gone off the rails but the siblings might be doing really well. Should they then have to go into care?

Yes there are some cases where parents are responsible. However a lot this is a societal issue. Children carrying knives and stabbing each other is widespread, not confined to a few bad apples and poor parenting.

Also, it’s a nice idea but totally not possible. If there was clear evidence of neglect then a parent could be prosecuted. But otherwise how do you determine their level of culpability?

My DSS came to live with me at 6 having experienced much abuse and neglect - if he goes on to harm someone, am I being held accountable? Or would it be the parent who exposed him to abuse? What if they were vulnerable?

In an ideal world people who aren’t ready/fit to parent wouldn’t have children, but we can’t stop that, so society needs to fund services properly and educate children and parents properly and support them both.

I agree. And not just the single mothers. The feckless absent fathers too. Drag them to court to justify why they couldn’t take responsibility once they’d ejaculated their criminal sperm into the world.

'But I think there are plenty more where the parents havent done a thing about an obviously troubled kid. Or even encouraged bad behaviour'

Completely agree. Everyone likes to think that all parents do their very best for their children, but there are some parents who see their child as a problem for someone else to manage / fix, rather than a vulnerable kid for whom they have full responsibility. If course those parents have massive issues of their own, but endless hand wringing doesn't get us anywhere. I do understand the suggestion of considering the level of parental involvement and effort as part of the court proceedings in cases like this, I just don't know what the next step would / should be

I think that approach is all about reacting to the symptoms of societies problems at the individual level.
When in reality we would be much better placed to create a societal environment where the dark side human nature is less likely to express itself, that would make far more difference because no one parents their child positively for fear of possible consequences of what might happen if they don't.
People need hope, community, health and connection.
If the world they find themselves in affords many avenues for those things instead of many barriers then statistically nasty incidents will be far fewer and that's where public policy can have the greatest effect at the level of an entire population.

Splatting rats cures nothing because it's not addressing the root cause.

And edited to add, effective early intervention support when the wheels do start to come off.

But with a healthy society the demand or necessity for professional intervention would be lower.
We're too busy fire fighting with over stretched services.

The parents were trying to get help OP, why are you not addressing that fact? They were working with agencies. What more were they supposed to have done! Your thread is in bad taste.

Do you have any links on this?

It's not really feasible though is it?

I agree.

I think that a there are plenty of situations where parents are doing all they can about a troubled child, but are getting no help.

But I think there are plenty more where the parents havent done a thing about an obviously troubled kid. Or even encouraged bad behaviour

Figure it out in court.

Not sure why you would list Southport as an example given how much the parents were actively trying to work with authorities about their son and were dismissed.

Also - I do think most parents aren't doing nothing. It's just what they are doing is ineffective. Until services start operating the way they should I don't think anything can be done. 'Oh, you should have contacted social services, in order for us to visit and decide there was nothing wrong.'

In some circumstances maybe. But with the Southport murders the parents were calling the police and trying to get help and nothing was done! I think those parents have enough to haunt them for the rest of their lives without having to be hauled through the courts themselves too.