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Original poster

To find what DC said really sad?

266 replies

Haemagoblin · 28/01/2025 21:37

I was parking the car with my DD8 in the back, and making a bit of a hash of it. I laughed to DD "God I hope Daddy's not looking out the window, he'll be laughing at me!"

She replied "he wouldn't laugh - he doesn't even smile very much".

I find this so so sad. I mean she's not wrong, he's a bit of a gloomy person; but he does try to be a good dad, playfights with them and teases them and makes jokes,so I guess I didn't realise how much his naturally quite negative vibe was actually being picked up on by the children.

Should I talk to him about it? We are not in a very good place so I worry he'll see it as me getting at him - but if my kid had said something like that about me I'd want to know!

OP posts:
BeQuirkyBalonz · 29/01/2025 11:22

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Original poster
Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 11:21

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I think it would be pretty crappy to let your momentary irritation override your husband's confidence and privacy just to score cheap points against the MIL. That's a very serious conversation and if he wanted to have that out with his mother that should have happened at the time and in the manner of his choosing, not because his wife lost her temper.

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BeQuirkyBalonz · 29/01/2025 11:19

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BeQuirkyBalonz · 29/01/2025 11:17

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Original poster
Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 11:03

FreeRider · 29/01/2025 10:52

I think you are gambling on the idea that if you split when your children become adults, they will look back at their childhood years and thank you for keeping the family together.

As someone whose mother did exactly that, I can tell you that there's a good chance that they won't. All I remember when I look back now is how miserable my father was, how he took it out on us, and how my mother made that possible. Everything had to be as my father wanted it, no matter how stupid his plans were, and my mother constantly going along with him meant my childhood was ruined.

My father left my mother for another woman 6 months after my younger brother turned 18. My older brother has told his wife he has no happy childhood memories - she made the mistake of telling my mother...my mother was very angry that her martyrdom wasn't appreciated. I personally feel now that she did it more for herself than for myself and my brothers.

Please listen and take seriously what your daughter has said. Living with two parents who obviously don't love each other and are miserable is very hard and not a good foundation for future relationships/mental health.

Have to say as well, your brother's wife sounds like a colossal shit stirrer. What on earth did she THINK the outcome would be of sharing that with your mother? Presumably your brother told her in confidence?

OP posts:
BellissimoGecko · 29/01/2025 11:02

thismummydrinksgin · 28/01/2025 21:41

Maybe if you were in a better place he would be in better mood? Any date nights or together time on the horizon? X

Bloody hell. A man's moods are theirs alone to monitor and fix. Why do you think a woman should take on that role? It's not our job to cheer up moody men, ffs

Original poster
Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 11:00

FreeRider · 29/01/2025 10:52

I think you are gambling on the idea that if you split when your children become adults, they will look back at their childhood years and thank you for keeping the family together.

As someone whose mother did exactly that, I can tell you that there's a good chance that they won't. All I remember when I look back now is how miserable my father was, how he took it out on us, and how my mother made that possible. Everything had to be as my father wanted it, no matter how stupid his plans were, and my mother constantly going along with him meant my childhood was ruined.

My father left my mother for another woman 6 months after my younger brother turned 18. My older brother has told his wife he has no happy childhood memories - she made the mistake of telling my mother...my mother was very angry that her martyrdom wasn't appreciated. I personally feel now that she did it more for herself than for myself and my brothers.

Please listen and take seriously what your daughter has said. Living with two parents who obviously don't love each other and are miserable is very hard and not a good foundation for future relationships/mental health.

As I've said I expect nothing from them. To me that's not how the parent/child relationship works. All I can do is make the best decisions I can with the situation I have, and be ready to hear them out if and when they have resentment or anger or sadness they need to talk through. I am fully willing and able to accept that I may be making mistakes, and that even if I am right and this is the better path, it will not leave them unscathed any more than divorce, poverty and instability would and they will be within their rights to hold me to account for that.

Really, honestly I do not see myself as a martyr or a saint. I made a bad mistake for them before they were even born; there is no perfect option now, only different kinds of fallout.

OP posts:
Imisschampagne · 29/01/2025 10:55

Haemagoblin · 28/01/2025 21:50

The answer to that is a very long story. My version is I have been doing everything I can to put it right and get to nothing back; he would certainly have a different version. "Date nights" are few and far between because we have young kids and no support. When we get them it can feel like a lot of pressure tbh. I think basically we are very badly suited but we're in it now and I certainly won't countenance initiating breaking up and making the kids lives exponentially more complicated unless that's what he wants. I have raised it before and he says he doesn't.

I dare say he would be a lot happier if "we" were happier; but from my perspective, one of the main reasons our relationship is on the skids is because he's so fucking miserable, grumpy and negative. So I suppose it's a bit chicken and egg.

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And what makes you think staying together is better for your children than being relieved of that dark negative energy they are experiencing every day?

I think you might be doing them a disservice. Also growing up with a bad rolemodel when it comes to relationships might affect their own ones later in life.

FreeRider · 29/01/2025 10:52

I think you are gambling on the idea that if you split when your children become adults, they will look back at their childhood years and thank you for keeping the family together.

As someone whose mother did exactly that, I can tell you that there's a good chance that they won't. All I remember when I look back now is how miserable my father was, how he took it out on us, and how my mother made that possible. Everything had to be as my father wanted it, no matter how stupid his plans were, and my mother constantly going along with him meant my childhood was ruined.

My father left my mother for another woman 6 months after my younger brother turned 18. My older brother has told his wife he has no happy childhood memories - she made the mistake of telling my mother...my mother was very angry that her martyrdom wasn't appreciated. I personally feel now that she did it more for herself than for myself and my brothers.

Please listen and take seriously what your daughter has said. Living with two parents who obviously don't love each other and are miserable is very hard and not a good foundation for future relationships/mental health.

waterrat · 29/01/2025 10:41

You only get one life OP

I couldn't live with someone this emotionally and intellectually shut down.

He isn't taking responsibility for changing - you can take responsibility for building a new life and creating a happier home for your child

perhaps without the burden of being in an unhappy relationship (that he isn't prepared or able to do any work on) - he might be a happier father to her

rainbowstardrops · 29/01/2025 10:35

I'm sure you've talked to him 'til the cows have come home but could you have a bare-faced sit down conversation now, saying what you've said here? Maybe he doesn't see that he has a problem and is miserable to others but if he knows how low you're feeling and how you're worried it's affecting the children then maybe that might be a wake up call for him?

I'm still living with my husband but I can honestly say I wish I'd left him years ago. There was always an 'obstacle'. Kids changing schools/exams/ don't want to disrupt the kids etc etc etc.
My children are now young adults and the eldest definitely holds me largely responsible for not separating years ago. Doesn't help that my husband is Disney Dad and always, always leaves all the hard parenting to me.

Don't be me. It's a desperately unhappy life to live.

Yazzi · 29/01/2025 10:34

Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 09:41

I really love this concept of 'parallel play'; it explains so much about how we used to enjoy ourselves as a couple - going to gigs, shows, and throwing parties, reading together, watching TV. A lot of that goes when you have kids, of course. And what I have always missed is what I really love best - deep, meaningful conversation. Which I think 'date nights' sort of set you up for which is why they feel so high pressure for us - at last, time alone to talk! ... And he has nothing to say to me, nothing to ask. It really highlights the cavern between us. Whereas this year we managed to go out to no less than TWO concerts together (no mean feat and OMG the COST of babysitting) but after both of those we were in a really good place. Fantastic vibe and actually great sex now I think about it. But it doesn't last.

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There's an easy fix to this OP- organise "doing" dates instead. Karaoke, pottery class, arcades, dance class, axe throwing, escape room, board game night; where you're focused on a shared activity and the pressure on the conversation is less.

SoNiceToComeHomeTo · 29/01/2025 10:32

You sound such a thoughtful and wise person, OP.
To me, everything you say makes sense and I can see why you are and your husband are choosing to stay in a marriage which is unfulfilling for both of you. You don't know whether splitting up would improve things for the children, and have good reason to suspect that it wouldn't. Even if you separated and both met new partners who you're happier with on a personal level, this is not guaranteed to make your children happier and could be harder for them especially if other children are brought into the family. And your next relationships might not be that happier - there is no guarantee of that either.
I'd suggest that the road of complete acceptance is the best one, and that includes accepting that DC notices that Dad is often miserable and most likely notices the same thing about you at times. Letting her voice this and acknowledging that she has a point - Dad is not often in a cheerful mood and sometimes you get down in the dumps too - will be really important for her sense of herself, and her future ability to trust her own gut. Don't make more of it than she does, but don't try to cover up with fake cheerfulness either, because she won't and should not be deceived.
Lots of children grow up to live fulfilled and happy lives despite less than ideal childhoods, as many of us have found out by experience.

Ottersmith · 29/01/2025 10:30

Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 09:05

On the day to day, between us, I'd say things are... functional. We are a bit like colleagues - we share this job of children and home and we divvy up the work accordingly and usually quite amicably. Where it falls down is if I get caught up in his grumbling - either trying to solve the problem for him or trying to get him to see it as not a problem - then we both get pretty frustrated pretty quick and the atmosphere can get very tense. So I try not to do that any more. I either try to let it wash over me or I sympathise briskly and then stop engaging with it. But it does chip away at me.

Evenings are a bit weird. Sometimes we do things together, sometimes apart. But I always get the feeling when he wants to be with me he is 'putting the time in' - a bit like I do i bed - it's something he knows is important to me, and he wants to do his bit, but takes no pleasure in it. So we'll watch TV together, but if I try to start a discussion about what we watched it falls flat - lots of one word answers or 'don't know'.

Weekends and holidays are built around the children. Holidays do tend to be a bit of a danger zone because he has so much less control of his time and environment so the number of things he gets annoyed about increases, and I tend to get irritated with it quicker because 'we're supposed to be enjoying ourselves'.

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Well I would definitely holiday without him. I know people who do this who aren't on the rocks.

BingoDingoDog · 29/01/2025 10:25

Which I think 'date nights' sort of set you up for which is why they feel so high pressure for us - at last, time alone to talk! ... And he has nothing to say to me, nothing to ask. It really highlights the cavern between us.

That's why I think date nights would be too much. Do something where you don't have to interact too much. If you are finding new friends maybe you can find someone take turns to babysit. Babysitters are expensive but much cheaper than the costs associated with bad marriages and getting divorced.

Ottersmith · 29/01/2025 10:25

Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 08:33

An enormous bone of contention (as it were).

Lost my libido after first baby, followed by a quote traumatic bereavement - previously sex had been out mainstay in the relationship as a way of bonding and reconciliation, so I definitely take responsibility for letting that slide and it did lead to a breakdown in our relationship from his side - but then again from my pov, the relationship took a battering from the early days of first baby when I felt incredibly uncared for and abandoned. He struggled a lot to adapt to parenthood, DESPISED the baby stage while I was utterly wrapped up in it. Looking back I think my expectations if us being equal parents were unrealistic, but there are some wounds from that time which have never healed because he is totally unwilling to discuss it as an issue, much less apologise. It was around this time the relationship really began to struggle. I imagine this is far from uncommon.

So anyway sex became infrequent because I fully bought into the feminist notion that I shouldn't have sex I wasn't enthusiastic about; I'm older and wiser now and know I should probably have kept it up, because now the dynamic is all fucked up - he got fed up asking and being turned down, I got fed up feeling pestered, and it all festered and blew up at regular intervals.

We had some good deep talks about it after things came to a head - this was the incident some years ago where we discussed separating, and he made it clear how big an issue the sex was for him and how unhappy it was making him, but felt he couldn't say so because he didn't want to be a creep, and now didn't feel comfortable initiating. I really wanted to acknowledge this, so made the effort to initiate a couple of times a week.

The discussion we'd had was that I didn't want sex because I didn't feel any intimacy, and he didn't feel any intimacy because we weren't having sex (classic stereotypical gendered paradigm) and so the theory was if I worked on the sex side the intimacy would come back. Well it didn't, and I can't say if that's because my expectations of intimacy are unrealistic or because I do feel the regular sex as an obligation and that somehow comes across to him. I've come to the conclusion that for him the sex is just maintenance - he feels sub par without it but getting it doesn't actually make him feel happier or more loved or more intimate, it just scratches a physical and/or psychological itch. And of course that makes me even less excited about initiating sex I don't want.

Sometimes it works out ok and we have a good time and I go to sleep feeling optimistic things might be on the mend; but generally speaking the physical intimacy just highlights the yawning cavern between us emotionally to me and leaves me feeling very hollow and lonely. And whether we have or we haven't, daylight hours are always the same - little meaningful or light-hearted conversation, lots of moaning about this or that that displeases him, and a general air of beleagueredness that makes me feel I'm trying for nothing. Making myself unhappy just to keep him ticking over.

Which all sounds very bleak but in the centre of all this is our kids - our gorgeous wonderful kids who we both adore. If we do have a conversation it's usually about them. We work together really effectively as a parenting team - I'm the heart and he's the head, so they get their artwork cooed over, their tears hugged away and their problems listened to but also always have the right books in their book bag, savings building up in the bank, a gift for their friend's birthday party and enough milk in the fridge. We've pretty much settled on a mutually acceptable parenting style and recognise each others strengths and buttressed each others weaknesses. It's been a journey but it's quite a well oiled machine now. I feel like the kids always know what to expect of each of us and are rarely disappointed.

Stability (even a rather imperfect stability) is not something I'd lightly thrown aside based on my own experiences. But I appreciate this will be prejudicing my view of how bad is bad enough to call it a day, and also that the deep thinking and on the one hand/on the other hand type thinking I do a lot of can also be a good tactic for delaying making any decisions and this avoiding "the blame" for any unintended consequences. My mother was much more of a "feel the feeling = do the thing" kind of person, and she ended up bloody miserable, so I try and be more measured. But I am aware this could end up having measured my whole life out and my kids will still be angry and upset and troubled by the upbringing I chose for them (as a number of posters here whose parents did stay the course "for them" are now).

Anyway it helps to talk it through. If I have a problem in my life it's that I have a very busy brain and a desperate desire to connect, and for some reason have chosen a life partner of very few words and limited interest in discussion. There must be a reason for that but it can't be a good one! My head feels like it's going to explode sometimes with all the words I have to choose not to say to avoid an argument/atmosphere.

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When you said you stopped being interested in sex after your first baby, I knew it would be about him not supporting you enough. It always is. It's no small thing. If you want to support your child, you have to support the Mother. So many men don't get that. It must be so sad sharing that time with someone who isn't enjoying the baby bubble as much as you, so no wonder you would be turned off by him

I think if you need to keep everyone together then couples counselling can only be helpful for you and maybe make him aware of how his moods effect everyone.

JoanCollinsDiva · 29/01/2025 10:23

Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 06:52

He's always been like this but it's worsened over time. To head off the inevitable "then why did you..." question, he is incredibly driven and ambitious, and his view was always that he'd be happy when x happened - when he got a better job, when we had a proper house, when we made a bit more money, when he had a bit more free time, etc etc. I have realised over time that whatever we achieve, he is always dissatisfied and there's always something else that is needed. I find it a relentless and unhappy way to live; but I think for him it's just what life is about - continuous optimisation towards a state of perfection. So there's always something to be annoyed about - the fact it's raining, something in the house needing fixing, over the road's recycle bag had takeaway remnants in it so has been gutted by foxes and there's crap all over the street, traffic is looking bad on the app, his old job didn't pay enough, his new job doesn't let him work at home as much as his old job, etc etc. Just constant dissatisfaction and gloominess. It wears me down because after frankly quite a difficult life all I want is to be happy and content, and from my perspective we have everything and the only thing stopping us being blissfully happy is him refusing to be so. But I know that is a perspective born of frustration and not a fair assessment that includes his pov.

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I understand your reasons for staying OP, but personally I couldn't live like this.

My dh's positivity is the best thing about him. I couldn't ever be with a misery guts - it must be exhausting. Just reading your posts is making me gloomy!

PennyApril54 · 29/01/2025 10:18

Ohhelpicantthinkofaname · 28/01/2025 21:43

Our sole purpose in life isn’t to keep men happy you know. He needs to look at himself and try and appear a little more up beat if even an 8 year old notices.

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Well you're right but it is nice if we can consider the feelings of people we love and be attuned enough to notice and care when they are low and maybe attempt to lift them. This is her partner not just a stranger off the street.

unmemorableusername · 29/01/2025 10:15

It's always a gamble leaving a relationship.

No one can predict what'll happen or the long term effect on any of you.

Improving the current situation sounds like the best short term plan. Would he go back to CBT for a more positive attitude?

Long term get your ducks in a row for a divorce in a decades time.

RunningJo · 29/01/2025 10:14

You have had some great comments / advice on here & you put your feelings and your life into words so well, would writing a letter to him help? . No need for conversation then, and it gives him time to take it all in.

I hope you find a solution at some point that works for you all. You sound a really great Mum.

amandie · 29/01/2025 10:09

Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 06:29

But just because I think I'd be happier doesn't mean I would. Just because I might be doesn't mean he would be. And even if we were both happier, our separation would affect our kids' lives in ways that might make them unhappy quite out with our happiness (happy i.e. self-focussed parents do not necessarily equal happy kids, if the parents' happiness requires the kids to live a life no adult would choose (two separate homes, potential strange adults and other unrelated children and further half siblings living in them, contrast between half sibs/stepsibs who get to live with their parent(s) all the time Vs self shuttling back and forth a d missing half of everything...). I'm not saying there aren't situations that would still be for the best. Maybe even in mine. But I'm not convinced of that yet because it's complicated.

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You are a very intelligent and selfless mum OP. Many parents lazily fall into the convenient “what’s good for me is good for my kids” way of thinking.
Sometimes it’s true, and sometimes it’s not. An abusive situation is different to a ‘could be better’ situation.
Family life complicated, and you sound like you are bearing everyone’s wellbeing in mind, while keeping your children’s wellbeing uppermost.
I have a feeling your children will be okay while they have you looking out for them. x

SerafinasGoose · 29/01/2025 10:07

Haemagoblin · 28/01/2025 21:50

The answer to that is a very long story. My version is I have been doing everything I can to put it right and get to nothing back; he would certainly have a different version. "Date nights" are few and far between because we have young kids and no support. When we get them it can feel like a lot of pressure tbh. I think basically we are very badly suited but we're in it now and I certainly won't countenance initiating breaking up and making the kids lives exponentially more complicated unless that's what he wants. I have raised it before and he says he doesn't.

I dare say he would be a lot happier if "we" were happier; but from my perspective, one of the main reasons our relationship is on the skids is because he's so fucking miserable, grumpy and negative. So I suppose it's a bit chicken and egg.

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I wouldn't be entirely convinced that remaining in this situation really is in your children's best interests. Your daughter has already made you aware that she's noticed.

I'm the daughter of a family who really suffered from the 'staying together for the sake of the children' maxim. It was a different situation, given my father was abusive (particularly toward me). But I know all-too well the atmosphere of a home like this - the temperature suddenly feeling 10 degrees warmer and lighter the moment the soul-sucking person is out of the room.

This isn't a good way to grow up, as I know from bitter personal experience.

Original poster
Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 10:05

ItGhoul · 29/01/2025 10:01

Well, his sole purpose in life isn't to keep women happy, either. He might be desperately unhappy or depressed. If a man told me to 'try and appear a little more upbeat' when I was bleakly unhappy, I'd tell to fuck off into oblivion.

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While I agree with this to an extent, I do think at least a high priority for him should be ensuring his child's happiness.

OP posts:
Original poster
Haemagoblin · 29/01/2025 10:04

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A bit isolated. Work is good but I'm not challenged enough so get lazy (CF this hour on Mumsnet when I should be working); I have a good set of pals but rarely see them as we're all so busy and restricted by childcare. I have just started a really fun and exciting hobby (won't say what as outing!) which brings me into contact with lots of lovely amazing women. I do think this is good for me and is really lifting my mood.

OP posts:
user1492757084 · 29/01/2025 10:01

Op, I don't think you guys have anything to lose by seeking out some couples counselling.
You could end up being a lot more satisfied.
Even self help books like Fake It Till You Make It.

Your husband might be invested in giving it a good go.
He might settle for sincerely trying self help or couples Be Happier therapy rather than counselling by him self.

Just little games at the dinner table like everyone offering up the thing that day that made them the happiest, the most lucky, the most glad. The kids would see that their father also experiences cheerful times.

I wish you more contentment, Op; and hope you can instigate fun times and a more relaxed happy home.