To find what DC said really sad?

Angry outbirsts...did he always have them, even when dating

Any parent who doesn't think like this needs to take a long, hard look at themselves.

And if you want another example of what my mother is like, she used to be very jealous of my MIL (same age as my mother) and FIL...they both worked very hard and reaped the rewards when they were in their 40s/50s - good holidays, house paid off, my husband had a good settled childhood and education, went to Oxford etc...basically everything myself and my two brothers didn't have. Every time I rang my mother during that time she'd be sure to make some bitchy remark about my MIL i.e. 'oh are they off on holiday AGAIN? Must be nice to have no money worries' etc

That only stopped when poor MIL was diagnosed with terminal cancer at 68. She died 2 years later...I said to my mother 'not so envious now, eh?' She had the sense to keep her ugly mouth shut then.

My brother had already previously told my mother we had a shit childhood - she countered by getting personally nasty and saying things like 'oh yes we made you walk 10 miles to school and then made you work down the mines' ... she has absolutely ZERO accountability for her part in it all.

That's probably why he's been extremely low contact with her, like I have been, for 25 years. She actually found out from my now SIL that they had bought a new house and moved...he couldn't be arsed telling her. If it was left to my brother he'd have zero contact with my mother. It's my SIL who tries to keep the connection. If I was her, I wouldn't bother, my mother doesn't appreciate it.

Considering how my mother never shuts the fuck up (after 35 years of divorce) about how everything was my father's fault and how she was the poor suffering SAHM that he took evil advantage of and then discarded, my poor SIL (who my mother also treated like shit because she was jealous of her, her decent career and her loving family) probably saw it as a bonding moment - 'Yes, poor older brother has said that he doesn't have a single happy childhood memory'...and of course my fucking narc mother saw it as a criticism of her perfect parenting...because of course SHE didn't nothing wrong...

I hold both parents responsible for what happened when I was a child. My mother could have got us out of the situation at any time, she was independently wealthy and had a large family willing to support her. She put her marriage and religion (Catholic) and the desire to display as the perfect Mother (a complete sham) above the welfare of her 3 children.

OP from reading your updates there are a lot of mights - your kids might be damaged by splitting being your number 1 concern (as it should be). This is the thing about change, you don't always know it's going to be better to change rather than stay. But you are a lot more informed about what will happen if you stay together - you will not magically become happy. His behaviour and your responses to him show that - clear as day. Also, you are not your mother, your father, your step mother etc. You will not be like them.

When I ended my marriage, I was terrified of the changes. But that couldn't be the reason I didn't choose to end it. You matter too.

You know he's a good father most of the time. You know he will be an active father who continues to cherish your kids. These things will not likely change, whether you are together or not. And if they do, you'll face that challenge and change, just like all the others.

It takes strength to push unhappiness down, for years and years for the good of the kids. From the hint of what your child has said, your strength is being used in a way that isn't helping. She sees you trying to make daddy happy. Bending yourself around to keep the peace or to smooth things over. What has that achieved? He's still grumpy and unhappy. What does that teach her?

I have to remind my girls (mid and late teens now) that they are not responsible for their dad's happiness or his behaviours. That's not even my job anymore! And I've had to step in a couple of times since the divorce (5 years ago) to gently but firmly make sure he knows that it is impacting them. He takes it on board mostly too.

If you knew the outcome of all the options, with certainty and conviction, which would you choose? Stay and suck it up, or separate and see where life takes you? That will be your answer and no listing the options and the potential what if's is going to fix this for you.

Why did you get together and get married though? You must have had stuff in common then? To a previous poster's point about tough spells - is this one? Life with small children was a relentless grind in my experience. A hamster wheel of never ending chores, crappy kids tv and the same thing every bloody day.. I love them but god some days were very dreary

You could go away for a few days. Deliberately and with his support. Be open that neither of you are happy, and the kids are picking up on it. Something needs to change.
Split
Medication
Change of lifestyle in some way - you both actively live separate lives and support each other to take up hobbies and have a life outside with friends.

If the answer after a week away with some level of self awareness is that he does feel less unhappy and more relaxed then perhaps that would be a good thing and open the door to a healthier conversation about co-parenting?

These are wise concerns.

And sometimes marriages can improve, too: my parents were pretty unhappy in the 90s. They wouldn't have considered divorce even if they'd been desperately unhappy.

So they stayed together, ended up growing in their love for each other and eventually falling back in love. Out of five decades, one tough one isn't so bad. I'm so thankful they stuck with each other.

As pp have said, rather than a conversation-based "date night" go for a shared activity that means you don't have to talk. Whether it's a film, or something physical like a dance class. Though to be honest your marriage sounds dead and you're flogging a dead horse. You've given a very clear analysis of the situation as irretrievable but it's as if your past has paralysed you.

You are trying to take responsibility for so much. For his future state of mind - will he be happier? - and for your children's future states of mind - will they be better off? And of course if you try to predict all that you will be stuck. You are not responsible for what kind of father he is and you will find yourself trying to fill the gaps he leaves for the children whether you stay or go. Seems the gaps in "stay" are getting bigger.

So start with the here and now. You know things are bad for you and you've just seen evidence that they're not good for your children either. If anything it sounds as if things are getting worse for the children as they get older and his emotional limitations and his limited way of making contact with them breaks down further.

So it would be tough but not unreasonable to leave. Rather than trying to predict everything in advance - he said he wants 50-50 so of course he will want and get 50-50 when it happens! - you could try taking one step at a time and then deal with the new situation as you find it. You cold move towards divorce and if he does go for 50-50 and you think that's a bad idea you mitigate as best you can at the time.

This (among other things) is why I left my ex. My poor DD being subjected to negative, grumpy Daddy was doing her no good at all. Too much moaning about everything then turned me into a misery, I thought I was hiding it but I wasn’t. My DD is much happier, I’m much happier & she also gets a happier Dad! I knew he would never want 50/50 though. Our set up is more like 95/5.

F