What's your thoughts on asylum seekers?

@User32459

Asylum seekers cannot get visa’s. If you are fleeing war/persecution ect.., you will generally have to get yourself here through irregular means and claim asylum (which is perfectly legal) it’s not the same as illegal immigration where people disappear into country and black economy and are not actually documented anywhere here.

So do you not think anyone should be able to claim asylum anywhere then? That we should do away with that principle of international law?

Asylum seekers are coming over on small boats to claim asylum. Under international law, it's not illegal to come to a country, no matter how you do it.

They then claim asylum. If their claim is approved they become refugees. Those who are not approved, eg economic migrants are deported.

Sorry but if you're not eligible for a visa in a country then it's not right to break into it uninvited.

Go to a country where you can obtain a visa or are invited.

And if it's not 'illegal' to do it, then paying human traffickers thousands to cross the channel must be. People doing that should not be granted asylum, it's just encouraging human trafficking. Open up more schemes like Afghan and Ukraine to allow people seeking asylum to apply for visas lawfully.

It’s not really a simple thing at all - the notions of luck and destiny are fairly well debated in philosophy precisely because they are not simple.

Your world view might be that only you could be you, and that is down to a confluence of factors that had to come together over many years.

But is that confluence by design or chance?

It’s not quite the right fit (ironically) but it reminds me of the Goldilocks principle.

I’m sure there are many clever MNers who can explain it better - it’s a long time since I studied any of this.

A PP (not sure if it was you) suggested many Brits had worked very hard to create a prosperous country - and whilst that is true, if we are going to lean on the hard work of our ancestors as payment of our privileged status we cannot dismiss the tyranny and force they used to create an Empire that brought us wealth through the rape and pillage of other lands.

@DearDarcy

do you understand the difference between an undocumented migrant and an asylum seeker?

you don’t seem to.

i do think that generally we need to change how we deal with asylum seekers. But we can still be humane. The way to deal with undocumented migrants is completely different by the way. You need to squeeze the life out of the black economy. Countries with a smaller black economy have less illegal or undocumented immigration. the Uk has a thriving black economy.

it’s not about demonising people. Which you are very much doing.

It's very difficult and a lot of the mainstream media isn't interested in digging it up. A bit more has come out now that the centre-right press isn't worried about ruining the Tories' electoral prospects anymore, and the overall "vibe shift" around immigration meaning it's not an instant career-killer for a journalist to write something negative about immigration.

I'm not saying I'm better, I'm saying it's ridiculous to say I could have been born anywhere. No I couldn't, I could only have been born from the people who gave birth to me. Something so simple yet you seem unable to grasp it.

@Veronay There is something so ultra nationalistic about what you are saying. You literally think that your right to a good life is in your blood? You could have been born into a family in Iran or Afghanistan- whose ancestors also worked hard all their lives.

your not inherently better than anyone from anywhere else. Ultimately we are all human beings.

As I stated earlier, I have years of direct experience of working with asylum seekers and decades of working in the public sector. In that time I have been spat on, attacked with a hammer, had my car vandalised, been threatened more times than I can count, had my family threatened and my belongings stolen. None of those things were done by asylum seekers though. They were all, as it happens, carried out by white British unemployed men. If I followed your line of thinking, I would therefore decide that all white British unemployed men were scumbags. But, that is obviously not true.
Part of my job used to be to deal with dispersals - collecting asylum seekers when they arrived into the area. For reasons I could never understand dispersals were always done at an ungodly hour so I would go, alone, in my tiny little car, at 2 or 3 in the morning to collect 3 or 4 new arrivals at a time. Never once did I have a problem, never once was anyone even remotely disrespectful.
I also used to regularly visit the properties they lived in, again, I went alone. Always HMOs so 6 or 7 young men all living together. Again, never once did I have any problems. That’s not true actually. I discovered that when they have visitors, culturally, they provide food. So they would always cook me a meal which was lovely, but when you are visiting 5 or 6 properties a day, you get fat!
So yes, my direct experience is very different to what you claim. Are some asylum seekers sumbags with nefarious intentions? I have no doubt they are but is it more than you find in the population of this country who were born here? Not in my experience.
I agree the system is a disaster. These young men want to work. They do not want to sit around all day doing nothing, with no money. And, visit any car wash or late night take away and you will see that they are working. Being exploited for pennies. Why don’t we let them work, legally? There are not many British people lining up to work in a car wash or do the 11pm-4am shift in a takeaway, so let them do it legally and allow them to contribute.
It is simply nonsensical to lump all “ asylum seekers” together into a homogeneous group and claim they are the same.
Outside of my work, years ago I was the victim of an awful crime, carried out by Albanians. It still affects me to this day. But I haven’t therefore decided that all Albanians are rotten. I actually went to Albania and it was nice, I met some lovely people. I just had the misfortune to come across some shitty people, same as can happen anywhere.

8% of the uk is built on as of 2024

How much of an increase in population are you after

Can you give a ball park figure - 100m? More?

Tell that to east London - much of it is reclaimed marshland and even the single skin Victorian cottages are still standing. Modern building techniques make it even easier.

Not that I’m in favour of paving over the entire countryside - but we’re not in any way ‘full’.

Much of that 92% is already developed as farmland though, which while greenn also is far from natural. And a lot of the remaining after that is things like marshland and mountains (mostly in Scotland) which would be harder to build on. The Isles don't have much space left to develop as towns/cities we know.

It's actually quite insulting to say where you are born is an 'accident'. It might shock you to learn that before you came thousands upon thousands of generations of people who all tried hard to have a good life, many of them suffered and many gave huge sacrifices so you could live a better life today. Where we ate born is absolutely no accident, I'm not talking in a spiritual way but saying that you are 100% the product of your ancestors. That's not to say that some people are born into hardship they don't deserve, no one deserves that. But don't for a moment think that all British people have always had an easy time, it's far from it.

8% of the uk is built on as of 2024

that leaves 92% of the island not built, it’s highly populated in south east, but as an island there is still plenty of space

It's a general consensus by historians that Romans left Britain in better state than they found it, that might be why as not sure you can the same about places Britain have invaded.

Ok Nigel.

It's all men that you see.

Women with children are a priority for housing and they are normally housed as a family. If both parents are here then again they are housed as a family.

Single men are not a priority and are given a room rather than a house or flat so you end up with a house of multiple occupancy filled with men who are not allowed to work or study and have only a small amount of money.

So they hang around in parks, or on street corners.

They should be required to do something, education on British life and English and be encouraged to volunteer.

The best way to stop the boats is to make the places people come from better.

For economic migrants they have often paid thousands of pounds that they have borrowed and need to work to send money home and to pay off their debt.

I'm not sure if we shouldn't have an 'economic migrant visa' that cost £5000, allows you to do limited work and only for a specific time. We have lots of working holiday visas for Australian, NZ, South Africans, we know most stay for a year or two and then go home.

I assume asylum seekers are pretty much like everyone else. Some will be decent people who need help, some will be dickheads who are taking advantage and some will be something in between.

Not sure if it has been mentioned but an issue that is never brought up is that fact that the West interferes so much with countries in the South. Why? I have friends with amazing lives in certain European, African, Asian and South American countries - also many people are “asked”’ to come and leave decent lives behind - but the issues with development are always similar - although these counties are independent by title, many arnt free from western interference.

And so on that premise, places like the UK become a hub for people to migrate to.

I’ve worked with asylum seekers - you can’t generalise, but in general, most of the population are geared towards working and providing for their family. Even here in the UK, there are people that abuse the benefit system - but the small percentage of bad news will always take up more airtime than needed by press.

I'm so used to dumb ignorance that I tend to take it at face value. However I'm glad to hear you're aware WW2 has ended.

Oh dear, sarcasm is wasted on you isn't it?

😆😆

It must be very confusing for you but I'm happy to help. France was last invaded by the Germans in WW2. Did you think that the war was still good on? Are you in a bunker?

People fleeing Draconian regimes such as Iran and Afghanistan are paying people smugglers to take them into Europe. From France (which is at peace), they are boarding dinghies and making their way to the UK.

Once in the UK, they are claiming asylum. Please let me know if you need further clarification - you must be disoriented.

So there's a war on in France?

First I heard about it 🙄

@DearDarcy Are you willing to take in the grown men that are arriving here every day into your homes? If not where do you suppose they are housed and who do you suppose pays the upkeep of all this?

You might find this interesting :

Lots of NIMBYs around it seemed

Because many people coming to the UK via small boats are fleeing the Taliban. Afghanistan is a failed state. The US and UK invaded and took over Afghanistan, then left it to the Taliban. The US negotiated with the Taliban before pulling out of the country.

A rudimentary knowledge of the history of the ME would enable you to understand foreign intervention that led to the rise of groups like the Taliban and the regime in Iran.

Your thinking is very simplistic. For example, you think that impoverished people with no weapons, no rule of law, no ability to form a resistance and no outside assistance can just overturn a highly trained and armed gorilla army. I'm guessing through will power alone.

In your opinion, the people of Iran, Syria or even Palestine are too lazy to fight back. They should all miraculously arm themselves and take on their governments despite having no way of doing so.

I'm also guessing that a well founded fear of persecution such as fleeing Assad's torture chambers or facing a death squad isn't a good excuse to leave. These people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make their country better.