To think that wolf whistling wasn't such a bad thing?

DD (then 15) took up running during Lockdown and came home every single time upset at being stared at, shouted at, followed etc by men
She stopped doing it.
She did it to improve her fitness and also for her Mental health and she was prevented from doing it by Men

Another question for you OP… now it’s not deemed to be acceptable, who do you think is missing out? Men? Women? Society?

This is hilarious.

”Women learnt to handle themselves in a non-threatening way”

So women who might vocally object to this are now ‘threatening’?! To whom - the poor wolf-whistling non-rapey men who are just trying to brighten their day?

Or do you just mean women in the past graciously (passively) accepted men publicly commenting on their looks? Because that was generally the case in situations where that very same cheeky cheery chappie might turn on a pinhead and start yelling abuse if you failed to respond ‘correctly’ by smiling or whatever. So we put up with it. From about the age of 11 in my case IIRCC.

This bullshit was never a harmless exchange of pleasantries (see also “smile love, it might never happen”. It’s the very tip of the hideous iceberg of entitlement, ownership and misogyny that’s always dictated women’s behaviour in relation to men doing and saying whatever the fuck they feel like. Simper, appease, smile, be suitably grateful, move on quietly. Under no circumstances make a fuss regardless of how uncomfortable you may feel, because to do otherwise could make you vulnerable.

Much as I love JL, @AlbertCamusflage is bang on the money with that comment. It’s all part of the ‘weren’t the 60s, 70, and 80s such fun, wink wink’ and ‘a bit of slap and tickle never hurt anyone’ schtick used to excuse and cover up appalling male behaviour. Jimmy Saville was the fucking embodiment of it.

'I have something that you want, and it's up to me whether I give it to you or not, and I won't!'

Honestly Dairy, you seem really lovely but you have just objectified yourself.

The men didn't know you, you are referring to them wanting your vagina right? Not you as a human being.
How is that empowering? I'm flummoxed. I think of myself as human first and not vagina first.

I guess if you feel flattered by being wolf whistled at there’s nothing to stop you heading down to your local building site and letting them know that you’d welcome it when you walk past. They can give you a bit of an ego boost whenever you want! And those of us with higher standards can continue to be spared.

I don't disagree with anything you say. I'm just saying that I didn't experience it like that. I'm not judging myself right or wrong in feeling this way.
Perhaps it's just part of the narrative we all weave around our lives. I didn't see myself as a victim or as harassed in these situations.

I don’t understand the ‘I’ve never seen it happen’ anecdotes, if not to doubt the accounts of those who have experienced it.
Just because you didn’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
I also agree that a man wouldn’t be confused between a woman and a child. Again, you’ve missed my point. It gives them that plausible deniability, doesn’t it? Of course they know it’s a child, but they can say that they didn’t know. And if wolf whistling is acceptable, well they were just whistling at someone they (claim to) have thought was an adult.

I was one of those 11 yo girls whistled at constantly. Blonde, developed early, tall. But I certainly didn't look 21 at 11.

It did me harm.

OP, you're moving the goalposts around madly. For clarity, do you believe:

1. It's not that bad, even though you've repeatedly been told some women find it so.
2. It's not that bad compared to grooming and raping nowadays. Even though grooming and raping happened back then as well.
3. You believe that men should be allowed to do it because for some ineffable reason you think it prevents them doing worse. It doesn't.
4. Nice men check ID before doing it even though so many women have said it happened to them in childhood, me included.
5. Because you think it's simultaneously harmless, flattering and for some reason hardening for women (which is a good thing...) you think that outweighs the harm it does.

Why you can't see that men could just not have, never have, done it. Women could have gone about their days free from harassment. If men saw a woman they thought was attractive, they could, I don't know, make eye contact and smile nicely. Which would only work if the woman made eye contact, because maybe she thought they were attractive too. Like a human being.

I'll try.
Because I was a young girl, just getting used to having a woman's body, and if I'd made the effort and it got noticed I would feel pleased.
As I said above, I always saw it as they wanted something I had, and I knew I wasn't going to give it to some random on a building site, so I held power. Sometimes it's good to be seen. It's hard to describe. For me it was part of the change of being a girl not being noticed, to a woman. I found that empowering. I've always, always enjoyed being a woman, and yes I'm aware it comes with extra risks but I wouldn't change it despite all that. I'm not sexy now and don't miss it a bit btw!

@dairydebris

Because my experience of it just never felt to me like yours did to you. To me, it felt like- 'I have something that you want, and it's up to me whether I give it to you or not, and I won't!

But that's a large part of the point, isn't it?

It isn't 'up to us' if we 'give it to them' or not.

1 in 4 women will be raped in their lifetime. Not all men let us decide whether we 'give it to them or not'.

And the knowledge of that can cause many women to feel uncomfortable, upset and intimidated by a man they don't know wolf whistling them.

Women aren't there to be men's entertainment because they are ''bored''.

Exactly this.

Last night I was in a pub and a man told me I should be up dancing so he could look at me . Apparently he expected me to be his entertainment 🙄
Was I supposed to be flattered by this?!

It is interesting. Because my experience of it just never felt to me like yours did to you. To me, it felt like- 'I have something that you want, and it's up to me whether I give it to you or not, and I won't!'
I do wonder if watching a video back now I would feel different.
I can truly say though, it was always the quiet ones that I found dangerous. The brashness of a cat call just never felt threatening to me. Being followed surreptitiously always terrified me, and on the occasion of serious trouble it was truly opportunistic. There wasn't cat calling.

Those who are flattered, genuinely can I ask why? Is a man who whistles at women desirable in your eyes? Do you have some sort of hot cheeky chappie fantasy builder in mind, who is so overcome by your gorgeousness he can't help expressing his admiration? Or do you know he's just Joe (below) Average, probably married but with a wandering eye, a bit thick and unaware of what's acceptable? If you do know this, why is the fact that such a poor specimen may find you sufficiently attractive to spare you a seconds attention on a dull day something to be flattered by?

Men aren't scared of women though.

And I imagine a decent percentage of them would take the whistle as permission to go and harass the woman, or assault her, or rape her, and then use the whistle as evidence in court that she was asking for it, if it even got as far as court.

Never liked Joanna Lumley, now I know why!

1 in 4 women are raped in their lifetime.

750,000 women were sexually assaulted or raped in the UK by men in 2023

How is that a small minority. Come on!!

But don’t you see it’s all part of the same culture? The fact that it’s ok to objectivity and comment upon people’s bodies?
If wolf whistling is seen as acceptable, the next step is pushing boundaries… ‘oh but she looks 16, I never realised she was underage’.

The problem with reversing this specific situation is that there is such a huge imbalance in the threat level between the sexes.

Statistically, it's overwhelmingly more likely that a man is a threat to a woman than vice versa.

So a woman is much more likely to feel frightened / intimidated / upset by being singled out by a male stranger who is making a noise to let her know he is looking at her.

Women are not raping men and do not pose the same threat to men as men do to women.

You can not turn this on it's head

@NovemberMorn

A genuine question for you - do you believe that men who wolf whistle women genuinely believe that the woman will definitely be flattered?

And another one, do you believe that most men who wolf whistle women will stop doing completely (not just to the specific woman) if a woman ever looks uncomfortable, upset or intimidated, as they hadn't realised it might make women feel that way and are upset that they might have been the cause of her feeling that way?

I wonder if men were posed this question what they'd say. Would they mind if women whistled at them?

Men tend not to get the affirmation that women do from what I can tell.

I'm sorry you experienced that, it's truly awful. Unfortunately you are not alone. 1 in 4 women will be raped in their life time.
750,000 women were assaulted or raped by men in the UK in 2023 alone.

I am not young myself but even back in the day my friends and I hated it. Why did I hate wolf whistling?

Mostly I felt an overwhelming sense of being objectified, not as a person but as a thing. Maybe I had a innate understanding that the men didn't care what I looked like, they wanted to have control and attention from any female, it was about them. I never felt it was personally about me, it was about them and their control, power and the fact they were up high added to that power. The problem is rape is also about control, objectification and power.

If you could look back at yourself as a young women and watch a video of one of your experiences of wolf whistling/heckling viewing yourself as a very young woman and the men pack like you might see the dynamic in a different light.