To think that wolf whistling wasn't such a bad thing?

A friend of mine had to get the tube to school every morning in the late Seventies, early Eighties. She was groped all the time. She told me once that she grabbed the hand that was groping her and pulled it in the air and shouted 'Anyone know who this hand belongs to, because I just found it between my legs and it isn't mine!' She's now at the top of a very prestigious profession, worth a fortune. You needed that kind of self-worth and bravery to get on in those days.

Yes this is exactly what I think. There is some utterly bizarre logic on this thread.

Wolf whistling is horrible but back then women were encouraged to think of it as a compliment. What men fail to understand is that wolfwhistling and 'hello gorgeous' etc when you come into work put women in their place: You are nothing but a sexual object and I have the right to judge you and decide whether you pass my 'would-shag' test.

And Lumley is right that we learned to be resilient in those days. I remember a friend's dad groping my breast after giving me a lift home. I didn't feel violated, I felt pissed off. Next time I saw him I was with a pretty friend and said to him, 'If you grope her I will knee you in the balls.' He laughed, but didn't grope her. If I am honest I do think women these days need more of that sort of resilience - NOT because we should tolerate it, but because the current trend of collapsing with trauma at being groped puts women firmly in passive victim mode and that too is very low status, socially. I prefer the 'Do that again and I'll slice your balls off while you sleep' attitude.

But the main point is - we shouldn't have to contemplate this. I tried to explain to DH the other day that when pretty young women start work they never get the freedom to have a meeting or a drink after work with the boss, knowing it is just about work, as young trainee men do. Every single day when I was young my radar was on high alert: is he being nice and mentoring me because he values my work or wants to bed me? Do I seem keen at my job or am I accidentally sending flirtatious messages if I smile? We should have the right to just go to work and think about work, be mentored and value the mentoring, respond to training without thinking we are sending mixed messages. To just get on with life. We should have the freedom to walk down the road without fat-bellied scaffolders letting us know if they think we're fuckable. It's the tiny but constant pressure on our brains and our bodies that makes us feel a predator has eyes on us. And of course it has an effect.

It was fucking awful being a young woman in the 80s. Fact.
Gropey middle aged men
Endless comments
Overt sexism.

I agree that if a man behaves inappropriately then that doesnt make you a victim. It speaks only of that individual man. As I've said, like many others I have been a victim. But I think men should own their poor behavior and I don't internalize it if I don't need to. If something doesn't actually offend me, should I be offended? I don't want to retrospectively feel intimidated or victimized by something that didn't make me feel that way at the time. What would be the point of that? To re write my history?

But nobody is telling you to do that. You've decided that's what people are asking.

Reflecting on past situations isn't asking you to change how you felt at the time. It's more of a 'I can't believe that was seen as acceptable' type of reflection and a consideration about how we think women should be treated.

Do you have daughters or young female relatives? How would you feel if they were cat called?
if you have sons do you think that it's an acceptable way for them to behave?

100% agree with this.
Was just sharing my internal experience as others seemed interested.

The thing is, even if wolf whistling didn’t bother me, the fact that it makes others feel uncomfortable and intimidated is enough to make me think that the fact it’s now seen as unacceptable is a good thing. Why would anyone want others to feel uncomfortable just so that can get their split second of flattery and validation? Who actually gains from wolf whistling? And who lost out by it being ‘cancelled’?

I agree that if a man behaves inappropriately then that doesnt make you a victim. It speaks only of that individual man. As I've said, like many others I have been a victim. But I think men should own their poor behavior and I don't internalize it if I don't need to. If something doesn't actually offend me, should I be offended? I don't want to retrospectively feel intimidated or victimized by something that didn't make me feel that way at the time. What would be the point of that? To re write my history?

I never forget a friend of mine threatening to break a mans fingers at a posh dinner when he put his hand on her thigh under the table, it had us all in stitches. I don't think he ever groped another woman again

I think there's a difference between stating you felt unharmed by something and extrapolating from that the thing is objectively harmless. I think there are enough women who do feel harmed by it to make a strong case that it is objectively harmful, despite some women's feelings to the contrary. Where Lumley and some other posters are wrong is they are basing their judgement solely on their own feelings rather than considering others, calling for a return to tolerance of a thing that has no objective benefit to women, other than to boost the egos of a minority at the expense of harm to others.

I try to avoid thinking of myself as a victim as much as possible. I don't want that as a part of my personal narrative.

I don't see myself as a victim. Acknowledging that men have (and still do) behaved inappropriately towards me doesn't mean I see myself as a victim.

I'm not comfortable with the suggestion that if you object to inappropriate behaviour or were made to feel intimidated by a man then you're a victim.

It's an interesting question.
I definitely had interactions with older men that would be seen as completely inappropriate now. My memory of them doesn't include feelings of powerlessness tho, I still feel these were choices I made, and experiences I enjoyed.
I guess with current thinking some of these could be re framed. But I'm not sure that I'd like to reframe any of them. I loved being young, I loved figuring things out, I loved finally being away from my family and being free to make my own way, and own mistakes and learn from them.
I try to avoid thinking of myself as a victim as much as possible. I don't want that as a part of my personal narrative.

@dairydebris out of interest, when you reflect on these experiences do you see them differently?
I know that there are experiences I had which at the time I either didn't challenge or thought were normal but when I reflect back on them they make me uncomfortable.

Ha!
No, I no longer get cat called! I'm old and fat, I don't dress with particular care. If I was to I would definitely assume someone was trying to take the piss, I guess because it no longer jibes with my internal experience of myself. I'd ignore, or roll my eyes. I'm once again invisible and I'm cool with that. I can tell the difference though.

But this thread seems to have degenerated into people telling me I was incorrect to feel the way I did. I don't agree. I was never assaulted by a cat caller. You might say it's a spectrum of behavior. That's not been my experience. My troubles have always come from those keeping quiet in the background, not the shouty ones.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your second sentence.

But yes, had l had to walk within a few feet of a group of men shouting at me I'm sure I would have found it intimidating. But that didn't happen. For me it was men far away that I could hardly even see, the odd shout.

In saying 'can you not see... etc' you seem to be suggesting that my experience of this was incorrect. I just don't agree. You can't retrospectively rewrite my experience of it. You seem to be saying I was wrong to feel that way about it. I don't agree with that. It was harmless to me.

Also why do I have to squash down my feelings about hating it and need to work on my resilience? Why can’t creepy men do the work on not being creeps?

It's about respect.
Nobody saying there is anything wrong with wanting people to find you attractive. It's about how that is communicated.

In my opinion a man who thinks it's acceptable to wolf whistle and catcall a woman on the street does not respect women as a class.
Therefore I have zero tolerance for men like that.

Yes. I see that. Girls can be invisible compared with boys, and to, boys. I do understand what you're saying that suddenly you were seen. Does it still happen to you? And if not do you feel 'invisible' again? Obviously you don't have to answer, but you have been really honest and it's interesting to hear your perspective.

So you think the harmless catcalling would have seemed more threatening due to proximity?

Can you not see that harmless behavior can’t get more threatening?

I don't say it was a good thing that they did it.
I just say I personally didn't experience it as intimidating. I also don't think it gave me a particular power, more than any other female. I just experienced it as- I was a girl and no one noticed me, now I am a woman and men notice me. These men on a building site, and other men in the bar, in my class, whatever. I experienced it as a power I hadn't had before.

@Whotenanny

I'd rather be wolf whistled at than a man shouting "suck my dick, bitch" at me. The former makes me roll my eyes, the second scares me.

Has anyone at all said they'd prefer the latter?

What's the relevance that men do worse things?

We are allowed to not want them to do either thing!

There's nothing wrong with being pleased you are attractive to men. If you're a heterosexual woman it's pretty useful. But there's surely a difference between being attractive to the sort of men you'd want to date and being attractive to wolf whistlers? These men would fancy the charge hands broom if someone put a skirt on it, so of course they thought a young woman dressed up for a night out was hot. I just don't understand how you can be both extremely confident AND find positive meaning in this sort of thing. Of course it's good you weren't scared, but I'm still surprised you registered it as a good thing and thought these men fancying you (alongside pretty much every other female from 12 to...when does it stop?) gave you a special power.

You are seriously offering up children laughing at a glimpse of arse as a like for like with adult men sexualising those same children?

What comments about builders’ cracks did these ‘girls’ make TO said builders? It’s not something I can imagine. Was it ‘show us yer builder’s crack’? And was this unsolicited or in retaliation? Or are you just misremembering stuff? Because yes, it was something people commented on due to the proliferation of builders’ arse cracks peering over their trousers when they bent over to work on something. But I can’t imagine it was ever said TO the builders, except maybe when joking among themselves.

Thats a very strange set of alternatives - “suck my dick” or a wolf whistle. What about neither?

Most people I know are polite although they seldom wear hats.