Circumcision should be banned.

It would be hard to police just as other forms of child abuse within the family are hard to detect. It doesn’t mean you don’t legislate against them. Reasonable parents would comply.

That would be easy. Laws already exist which seek to punish people who harm children..

As I said, it would still be done, banned or not. It would be seen as even more vital to continue. The person allowed to carry out circumcision, would go to the family’s home and do it there. It will be very difficult to police .

I sort of agree but there are times where it is a grey area. What about a child with protruding ears?

Pinning isn't medically necessary but might have a huge psychological effect.

The same with mole or birthmark removal.

Sorry, i wasn't aiming that last part at you.

I have some friends where circumcision is part of their religion and they informed me that a lot of parents use a non-medically trained person, due to not being able to afford to get it done professionally, or not educated enough to understand the risk of that choice. It may be down to where you live and who you know. Saying that, about 10 years ago a baby died after haemorraging and that had been performed at a GP surgery. So even if parents do seek a medically trained person then they are trusting them to know what they are doing.

I don't agree with circumcision for religious/cultural reasons but I don't think we can ban it, as it will just get done underground. Maybe religious leaders need to be involved in educating their followers in risks and where to get it done. It needs to be regulated so that only professionals trained in urology can do the procedure.

The person who did It is a consultant surgeon in a large teaching hospital as are virtually all the people who do it. I am yet to come across someone who isn’t a medical professional although they may exist. I think that’s really important to clarify

I'd say the opposite - that a cut penis spends a lifetime rubbing up against pants etc and has much less sensation than one that is usually protected.

Edit: Oddly, the post I was replying to hasn't been quoted when the reply posted - it suggested that perhaps being cut was a benefit as it increased sensitivity.

Obviously you can't go in depth with every conversation you've had about it, but it comes across that no consideration is made- circumcision is just done.

For myself reading this, its the same 'reason"why women who have undergone FGM arrange for their daughters to undergo it as well. Its 'the done thing'.

In terms of a sense of belonging, tribes around the world that practice body modification (scarification, tattoos, the lip plates), they waited until the child hits puberty/adolescent. The tribes that stretch their necks with plates start at around 5 years. I may be wrong but i think a lot of these tribes do circumcise but they are not babies, usually older boys that tell them when they are ready. Not sure about FGM in tribes though.

There's a very small number that inflict anything painful on a baby, so why is circumcision so normalised on an infants that can't express how they are feeling- not all parents have the intuition to pick up on early warning signs of infection. I also don't understand why cutting genitals can legally be done by a unqualified person with no medical training.

Who decides that our moral limits trumps that of others. As I said, the name for that attitude is supremacism

So you'd allow FGM on the grounds that banning it is supremacism? Maybe you would but I'd hazard a guess that you wouldn't? Everyone has a line somewhere, why is it that the line other people want to draw is supremacism but you presumably don't think the line you would draw is?

I’ve had sex with Circumcised and non-Circumcised men … the ones who were Circumcised (for religious reasons), all had various levels of sexual hang-ups / issues.

Lack of sensitivity was the main issue, alongside issues with foreplay (masturbation was problematic), and psychological issues with it. One guy, only in his 20s, had to use tablets, and was seeing a psychologist about it.

All hated being circumcised.. but I bet they have done it to thier sons

FGM should be banned for everyone but women/girls have no autonomy.

, How on earth you would go about banning this I have no idea.

That would be easy. Laws already exist which seek to punish people who harm children.
Prison and removal of all children from parents care. No parent has the right to abuse or harm children and slicing genitals is no different.

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I don't think anyone is talking about banning it for adults.

In my religion (Orthodox Ashkenazi Jewish) I think parents don’t question it. It’s always been done and therefore something they just do. Each week there is Shabbat, each Passover, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur all involve set prayers, meals, traditions, fasts. Funerals are the same service for everyone , Boys have a bris and barmitvah. These things have been done for thousands of years. They have bound Jews together through war, exile, being shunted into ghettoes and being uprooted and ending up in different countries . Circumcision is another thing that unifies us, How on earth you would go about banning this I have no idea. It would just go ‘underground’. Near me there is a tiny synagogue for those who feel the mainstream Orthdox ones aren’t rigorous enough. I doubt some Jews aren’t aware it exists, let alone where it is. I think if circumcisions were banned, they’d be done there or in peoples’ homes. I want it stopping . It won’t be any time soon though,

arabellascot there is no "both sides" assaulting, mutilating or causing GBH to children- or anyone- is a morally unjustifiable position.

And if anyone is hiding behind any reason - including religious dogma- they should be ashamed.

Religion makes good people do bad things.

They’re not all new born babies and they have fathers, although granted it’s usually the males of the culture/religion that push such medieval practices.

I wasn’t comparing them. As you say, the motivations and scale of harm caused is widely disparate. FGM is unjustifiable and must be banned.

That any adult of either sex is suffering, as a result of a non-medically necessary surgery performed on their genitalia as a child, well that is enough for me to support a ban on both.

Adults can make their own decisions if they want to be circumcised.

I’m aware some people are concerned that by putting the two issues together, the focus on stamping out FGM will get drowned out by talk of male circumcision, because male circumcision does have widespread support. It is a very real risk. Ideally I think both should be banned simultaneously, but the priority has to go to stopping FGM.

"No - we don’t need to help men’s issues. Let them do that for themselves."

Well it's often mothers who make the decision for their sons.... Especially if they are single mothers.

"used to have a boyfriend who was circumcised and it didn’t affect his sex live at all (either in our relationship, before or presumably afterwards!)"

You presumably me he could have a "normal" sex life. EVEN He wouldn't know if it affected his sex life as he would have never experienced the increased sensitivity / loss of sensation compared to being uncircumcised.

Presumably even women who have had fgm are able to give sex / babies but no one says their mutilation has no effect...

And this resulted in the deaths of a some babies a few years ago in the states.
The mohel transmitted Herpes to them which is fatal to such young infants.

Some cultures perform a ritual called metzitzah b'peh, where the circumcisor sucks on the freshly mutilated penis to soothe the infant, while the attending family and guests all whoop and holler.