Circumcision should be banned.

The issue is that if God/Holy Book is wrong about circumcision, what else is wrong? Some rabbis etc have other interpretations, but it can be hard to work around. If you believe God knows best, then that's a powerful drive to rationalise.

@dogfrogdog I was actually trying to remember (it was a long time ago now). I remember us discussing it when ds1 was born.

Dh is white/english/christian so it's a bit of a mystery why he and his brothers were ever circumcised in the first place and, although I was brought up in a country where circumcision was the norm, we live in the uk where it isnt. So I think it was because, whilst neither of us felt it was particularly wrong, neither of us felt particularly strongly that it was necessary either.

Yes totally. It’s interesting that circumcision is prevalent e.g in the US where as you say, there should be access to proper information and where religion is less of a motivator. I suppose it shows how strong prevailing cultural influence can be, even in countries that would consider themselves ‘enlightened’ or advanced.

Actually the stat is wrong, in the article I linked earlier, from 2012, it had fallen to 80%.

It was both but you're right, primarily girls who they felt dressed in ways they didn't agree with...showing excess skin, barely clothes were phrases used etc

Plus just to say, this comment is unnecessarily inflammatory. I'd delete it if I were you

Pepe, I agree the clean argument is very weak. I think the health one is more relevant, but still doesn't override consent & is not urgent. Yes, as you say, FGM parents think they're doing the best thing. While the circumcision parents may have some evidence for the medical argument, it's weak. Both may have reasons to believe they're doing right, but that doesn't mean they are. In the Victorian times, some parents thought a mentally ill child was a changeling fairy & should be beaten until the real one returned. They meant well....Circumcision parents are more likely to be in developed countries where they have access to proper debate on the issue.
The article I linked suggests a similar attitude of apathetic tradition on the part of doctors. V disturbing all round..

Is it how the girls dress by chance? With no comment on how male teenagers dress.

Agree, OP. Totally barbaric.

It is interesting. In a way, it’s also about bodily autonomy - we don’t force people to have vaccines even though it will benefit them AND benefit the rest of society, because we generally respect people’s ability to make decisions for themselves.

With regard to children, we entrust their consent to their parents, so their bodily autonomy is effectively delegated - but the parent is still free to choose not to vaccinate despite the benefits.

But with circumcision, the benefits are limited (if they exist at all) but there are risks, and the effects are permanent. Unless medically necessary, it’s essentially a cosmetic procedure. I don’t believe parents should have the child’s bodily autonomy delegated to them in the case of cosmetic procedures.

I do think it's best to be scientific about topics like this, factual and unemotional as that's more likely to actually influence people. When I've had conversations on this topic with acquaintances who belong to religions that practice circumcision, factual conversations have been really positive. They have mentioned that they get lots of people looking down on their decisions and saying they hurt their children for no reason but pointed out that the "social and moral decay" and family unit breakdown in our UK culture causes far more hurt to children than circumcision ever will and I wasn't sure how to respond to that. It's better to present facts as that gets you further, in my opinion

@Porcuporpoise can I ask why you chose not to circumcise?

Then your ex has every right to describe himself as a victim and campaign against circumcision. My husband- also circumcised as a baby - has no memory of it and no problem with having had it done so isn't bothered. We chose not to circumcise our sons but I can't say it's something either of us felt strongly about either way.

So you are basically saying the majority of Muslims, Jews and Americans are child abusers?

@72hoursinaande Yes, I am. If they mutilate their children in the name of religion or 'just because'.

And they voted in Trump as their president twice.

Many people who've had potentially bad things done to them support it. I think the rusk of death, injury, reduced pleasure & the principle of consent outweigh those who don't mind. How would they remember what it was like at the time anyway?

Not vaccinating your sons is potentially far more harmful than circumsing them but we allow parents to make that choice for their children .

This is actually an interesting point, philosophically. I’m not sure the point hold though; punching my baby in the face is unlikely to cause them lifelong harm but I’d still be arrested for doing it because it hurts the baby and is in no way beneficial to them.

My ex was circumcised as a baby. He remembers every part of the procedure. He has PTSD, and believes it is linked. He is in no way happy about the procedure that he had no say in it, he would see himself as the victim of abuse. Awful, barbaric practice.

I also 💯 understand this view. But again...we know social media is harmful to kids, but more parents allow their young children access to it. Are they not "loving mothers" for allowing them access to what has been proven to cause harm? Even more harm than circumcision if it leads to long term mental health issues and even suicide? I can only imagine that parents who allow their children be circumsized are not any less loving than the average parent and for them, the reason they let it happen outweighs any pain the child feels? I suspect it's far more complex than saying parents that allow it are "not loving*

I'm sorry you feel upset. I agree w a lot of what you've said, but I do feel that in the US for instance, & many families here, the woman does have a say. This isn't Saudi Arabia, where circumcision is v common.
Women here do suffer definitely here, there's no need to exaggerated when there are indeed serious problems for us.
This article is v interesting on circumcision, apparently fathers are a major driver, wanting their son to look the same...& a mother describes her son's circumcision as 'beautiful & spiritual'. I hope he agreed. Some Jewish men later have said their glad the covenant was enacted to connect them to tradition, but what do they feel at the time?

But who's expecting women to challenge this? Certainly not the many men who have been circumcised themselves and see no problem with it. It seems weird to insist to them that they are victims of abuse when they don't recognise themselves as such.

Men generally have quite a lot of agency. If circumcised men don't see circumcision as a problem then maybe it's not. Or at least not such a big one that we need to spend our time and energy fighting it. Not vaccinating your sons is potentially far more harmful than circumsing them but we allow parents to make that choice for their children .

But we can legitimately argue about clothes, can’t we? Few people would consider clothes a moral absolute. Surely not chopping bits of your newborn baby off is non-controversial?

I kind of agree with you but then the other cultures would also feel confident in their moral standards. I have some non-british friends who would never let their children dress the way the average teenagers dress and think it's terrible parenting to dress that way. However, they of course don't say anything but are quite certain they're morally right. But the average British parent wouldn't see anything terribly wrong in the dressing, so who's right?

I’m not holding any human to a higher standard than any other human; it’s very simple for me. NO ONE should be chopping off bits of a minor’s body unless it’s medically necessary. The fact that anyone thinks this is controversial is pretty wild

FFS I can’t be arsed arguing the point anymore.

Will just reiterate the point about my sadness at the sheer amount of women who try to equate male suffering with female suffering.

All societies are generally patriarchal. Women women’s rights are secondary to males. Even practices which harm males are perpetrated and sustained by males. Yet women are supposed to stand up for males where males don’t.

I’m getting more depressed by the minute reading some of the responses on this thread so it’s night night Vienna from me.