Circumcision should be banned.

I do wonder. I think the only parents who would take their kids abroad would be those for who piercing is cultural perhaps? I don't see the average British person piercing kids ears, and i'd be very surprised if they took kids abroad if there was a ban. What do you think?

Unnecessary

Clearly it’s not the same but surely there a moral equivalence? It’s the parents choice, born out of their cultural norms, for no benefit to the child. It’s painful for the child and there’s a small risk of complications (albeit smaller in the case of ear piercing).

So can you think of a better one? A physical body modifiying procedure carried out on infants for purely cosmetic purposes that is sanctioned by the state?

There must be something. It can't just be circumcision and ear piercing surely?

Medical reasons aside, it should be banned. Let the lad make his own decision about it when he is old enough.
I had an ex who was circumcised. Not religious reasons - his brother had foreskin issues so the op was warranted, but his parents thought it best to have my ex have the chop too. He resents it to this day.

Do you think if ear piercing was banned on under 16s people would still do it? Or would it just be something that you did in adulthood if you wanted to wear earrings?

Do you think parents would take their babies abroad to get their ears pierced, or would the majority not bother?

I don't think ear piercing is a good analogy.

It is extremely minor, takes a millisecond, causes zero change to the physiological functioning of the ears, if you leave earring out they can even heal up.

You can't grow a foreskin back.

There is more than one definition of abuse, but this thread is about a particular subject so.....

I think mutilating a child for no good reason and without their consent counts as abuse. I don't really care if that is inflammatory, to be honest. It's just a fact.

How exactly do you think newborn baby boys are supposed to fight for themselves?

Thank you for this insight. I suspect lots of women (me included) think of circumcision as totally abhorrent because it’s not our cultural norm but equally I suspect lots of us may have find what you did if we were born into your situation. Objectively though, on reflection, do you think it’s right circumcision exists for any reason that’s not medical?

Interesting that it's now illegal to have your dogs tail docked or ears clipped but it's OK to cut an infants penis.

Probably yes, re a world of difference. But if a child is hurt in both circumstances, by your definition both parents are abusers? And I'm definitely not justifying circumcision, just saying there are probably ways to make the argument against it that would be more successful than being inflammatory

I think ear piercing is a good analogy for this broader moral point. I’d never get my child’s ears pierced in a million years but lots of people do. Do I intuitively think they’re all abusive nutters? No. However, by any definition of abuse that I can think of, they are abusers? Yes is the only answer I can come to.

I had my boys circumcised for religious reasons without a huge amount of thought. It was just what was expected. In time, I have given it a lot more thought and wondered if I had made a poor decision and discussed it with my now, adult son. He’s firmly of the view that it was absolutely the right decision, and that he would have been far more uncomfortable if we hadn’t done it. He feels it is fundamental to his whole being.

I’ve also discussed it with my late husband and my partner and other male friends. My partner couldn’t be less religious if he tried and yet the thought of not being circumcised is beyond his comprehension
i have no idea why they feel so strongly in favour of it. Equally friends who have partners nor of the same religion yet all of them have had their sons circumcised. As a woman in can’t speak from lived experience, none of us can, and there will be many men for whom it’s something they’re not haplg avojf but the vast majority feel that their parents made the right decision and make it for their own children

Ear piercing is a good analogy. My point isn't for or against circumcision, but more than a nuanced approach is better for most debates rather than being inflammatory

Yes it absolutely should be banned. Medical necessity aside.

It's sickening

Would people be OK with FGM if it merely involved trimming back the clitoral hood?

I would be in favour of a ban in this country, but i doubt it will happen in this political climate for fear of alienating those religions.

The NHS should not be carrying out circumcisions. Why my taxes are being used to mutilate innocent babies I will never know.

I think it’s barbaric. All these women’s responses above saying ‘it’s more hygienic’ and ‘it was a complex situation’ and ‘he was fine’ make me sick. Yes I do think you are child abusers. How you can watch your baby screaming in pain, being in discomfort afterwards and altering their body forever is horrifying. Your baby was perfect, but you decided to cut a bit of them off.

It's already illegal to cause actual bodily harm to a child. In Wales and Scotland, and under consideration in England, it's illegal to physically punish a child, but if you physically chastised your newborn infant and caused a similar level of injury than foreskin removal you would be arrested everywhere.

Ear piercing probably works as a better analogy than causing mental pain - is it a comparable level of injury do you think? Can you think of another procedure that causes physical injury for purely cosmetic purposes that is legal in newborn children?

There is, very obviously, a world of difference between deliberately taking a knife to a part of a baby's body and your ridiculous example of the pain caused by divorce to anyone who is not being very deliberately obtuse.

There is no way you can justify lopping off a part of someone's body without their consent. If you did it to an adult you'd rightly be arrested.

I feel body modification should not be done to children. FGM is the worse type of modification as damage is so severe and no medical reason to do FGM

Lines get blurred through when we discuss make circumcision. As in some cases circumcision is medically needed and not circumcising can cause issues.
Ear piercing ... Can also have risks but is seen as quite mainstream.

Parental choice to circumcise or ear Peirce removes the child's right to decide at an age they are old enough to choose.
However, cultural norms pay a huge factor if you are in a strong culture group a child will feel isolated if they are a minority in that group and therefore would likely opt for the procedure so this is influenced choice not impartial choice.

Cochlear implant is frequently choose by hearing parents for deaf children over less invasive, non risk option (sign language)
The child isn't given choice. The risks from CI are quite high and serious when things go wrong.
The risk of withholding sign language is known to be high but in CI example it is seen as the medical best option for a child to cope better in a hearing world.

Culture and medical norms vary greatly and forcing a group view on others is a slippery slope

Should we wait for children to.become a certain age and decide for themselves - probably - will this happen - highly doubtful

Totally agree unless for a medical reasons...I know two boys who had to have it done as the foreskin was too tight, which was causing pain and issues but both were done in the hospital as a minor op in the children ward to resolve the issue.

shuggles, Definitely personal aversion to thinking about something should never stop people campaigning against illnesses & harmful practices. W the circumcision example, I'd never state it was good or bad irl without reading the arguments for or against thoroughly to see if any alleged benefit was worth it. I don't think gay men need to know about the womb to care campaign for endometriosis funding, though it would help.

The aversion thing can sound foolish, imo though w lesbians it's often bc of creepy or outright violent attempts at 'conversion' from men & trans women, & insensitivity from female friends who can't believe they aren't attracted to men. W gay men, it's often as a reaction to pressure, but also an immature humour thing. Either way, it shouldn't prevent people trying to help others.

The spurious excuse Steinem quoted circumcision supporters saying makes me think- why are they saying this? Men know better than anyone else how their bodies work. Is it circumcised men who like it & are in denial of potential dangers? According to the US article fathers are a major driver.
& women? Surely they can see the whole cleanliness argument is rubbish, as you pointed out, it implies men can't otherwise keep clean? Faith in doctors who may have their own agenda? (,That is, when it's not religious).

A book I have quotes Gambian women saying they're sure women need to have FGM done or they won't get a man. Fron their village perspective, that makes sense. Otoh, people of both sexes in developed countries should know better.

I am intolerant of cutting bits off children for no medical reason NOT of any religion

The road to Rotherham was paved with good intentions