Life as a lawyer

I think it was a skeleton, so probably couldn't be filed and served without counsel approving it first. But I take your point!

I think you are entirely right in the second part - @nestaarchy it is does take some getting used to, it can feel a bit like an exam question being changed after you've answered it.

As others have said 4pqe can be painful, you're not junior and you're not yet in your stride.

Same as others you need to work out if it's certain individual, the firm or the work/law in general and go from there.

I moved at the point of my first mat leave, was 5-6 pqe. I was at the point of needing more control over my work and not be locked into the world and life as an mid level associate. It was the best decision and has worked out very well for me, I'm well out the other side now as partner and try to be fair to the few earners that work with me - I would be pissed if they got touchy about markup as that's par for the course but I like to think I'm nice in the way I deliver it, I don't tell them they are crap etc and try to build them up.

A law career is a long time and you are only at the point of coming out of the start really

lol @LondonLawyer! I mean, I can absolutely believe this happened, but also assume it was the sol’s letter so they could presumably have just sent it out as they preferred without getting into an argument?!

I think the key is, as someone said upthread, to try to think of the whole exercise as a collaboration, rather than a teacher marking your homework and feeling disappointed that you haven’t got an A* (which is probs what you’re used to getting!).

I would try and see it as a positive soak up their knowledge to use for your own purposes later on. It is demoralising though. But you are going to need a thicker skin for law and generally actually - both colleagues and clients can be tough. I know so many brilliant professional women in all sorts of sectors and think everyone has had difficult colleagues at some point. Most moved jobs if it got really bad.

"That said, counsel regularly mark up my work. It honestly wouldn’t enter my head to be annoyed by it unless I actually disagreed with the changes, which is rare." I was recently on an email thread @Ifyouknowyouknowyouknow where counsel and solicitor were nearly swords at dawn over "none is...." or "none are..."....

I’ve worked for 5 law firms (not a litigator). The first 3 were as I’d expect, yes my work would be marked up slightly but nothing excessive.

The fourth was a whole new ball game, real control freak of a partner who made me doubt myself even with 15+ years experience. Needless to say, that team had a very high turnover of lawyers (me included!).

I work for the fifth firm as a contractor, paid by the hour. The partners are quite difficult to work with, and the team has a high turnover as a result. Great for me as they need a steady pair of hands. I don’t mind cos I’m earning good money but they don’t “own” me (if I don’t check emails at weekends they can’t complain).

My advice would be find a different firm, it doesn’t have to be shit!

I’m a 10pqe litigator (counsel) in a US firm in London.

First thing I’d say is, try to work out whether the partners/your seniors are making you feel anxious in the way that they treat/interact with you, or whether your anxiety comes from the amendments they make to your work?

If the former and you work with dicks, don’t hang on for the mat leave - just move firms asap. Much easier to move when you’re in the sweet spot of 3-5 pqe with no kids - will be harder at 6-7 pqe when still navigating the return to work transitions and with a year’s less experience than it appears.

If it’s the latter and you’re just finding the process of constant refinement hard, like pps have said, it’s not personal and it’s just the nature of litigation. I regularly have to redraft entire letters/witness statements/emails of advice - not because the associate hasn’t done a good job, but because points of strategy, tone and emphasis change and are refined with time. The most common issue I have with associate drafting outside of those points is being too aggressive in correspondence - there is a particular tone/style that comes with time and experience. That said, counsel regularly mark up my work. It honestly wouldn’t enter my head to be annoyed by it unless I actually disagreed with the changes, which is rare.

Litigation can be very stressful and it does attract more than its fair share of anal pedants with limited people skills. I’ve been where you are and felt overworked and overwhelmed but I’m out the other side with 2 kids, a rewarding job where I have much more control of what I do and when I do it, and a massive pay packet. I do think I am temperamentally suited to it though as I generally thrive on stress and enjoy it all.

Either way you are right to hang in there (at current firm or similar elsewhere) and get your mat leave(s) before making drastic changes. Good luck!

Life just took me in different directions. Started off doing all sorts (family /criminal) in a high street firm then ended up doing international finance in a a Magic Circle firm.

FWIW I think things are going in the right direction. I'm not perfect but having seen the worst I make an effort to NOT be that type of supervisor. I'm optimistic that as more and more level headed women come through there'll be more and more better role models.

Having worked at a couple of different firms with very different partner styles I agree that the partners you work for make a massive difference. I've worked for partners at both end of the spectrum - some completely lovely and others with borderline personality disorders (including stuff you describe).

It's tough because when it's the latter you're mentally exhausted which makes it so much harder to stay resilient and so much easier to crumble and become stressed/emotional. It's a vicious cycle.

It almost sounds like you might care too much? Ie when you get feedback you beat yourself up too much? Definitely not saying it is ok to treat people like shit but if you are dealing with that it can be better to just take a step back to gain perspective.

I've found it easier as I get more experience and build inner resilience - makes it much more easier to just inwardly think fuck you you twat when people are out of order and let it slide off your back. I appreciate good feedback but sometimes it can be so unconstructive! I've also seen really high achieving people being broken. It sucks.

I really do think it could completely change at a different firm but you also need to be sure you're not jumping out of the fry pan and into the fire.

On the flip side, when I've worked for lovely partners, my mental health has been a LOT better (although the training and experience was not so great).

You sort of need to find the perfect balance where you are doing the work you want and not working for utter psychos! Maybe the goldilocks firm doesn't exist but there are definitely firms with better and worse cultures.

I would however 100percent recommend trying to get into a more long term job where you are happier and where you want to return to before you get pregnant (if you are lucky enough to be in that position).

I didn't and whilst I don't regret where I was, life got in the way and I ended up staying in the same job for years longer thank I intended.

@TheaBrandt how please? Not in a traditional law firm with its set department boundaries, I presume?

Don’t feel trapped into your area of law. I remember a recruitment agent earnestly telling us as newly qualified that you picked your area of law and stayed in it for your whole career. Wrong pal! I’ve worked in several really diverse areas.

@mucky123 love to know what some of the many niche sidelines are! I feel like there aren’t many sideways moves from being a litigator?

This might be a complete no for you but I'd consider what type of firm you want to work in.

I trained and qualified in a (mostly) friendly high street firm. Then went to a large regional and the culture was soul destroying. No one was actively unfriendly but no one was particularly friendly either and a couple of the partners were so incredibly critical it was horrid. The commute was long and there was a lot of inter office travel required which made the commute even longer. I was permanently exhausted and debated quitting law altogether.

I moved back to a high street firm recently. I did take a slight pay cut but actually I'm working from home more and used to do a long commute with expensive parking so it balances for me. If I'd stayed longer the gulf in pay would have felt massive but I was happier from day 1.

Culture is so huge and life is too short to spend time at work second guessing yourself and crying a lot. Think how hard you worked and how long it took to qualify. This isn't the professional life you worked so hard for and there are better options out there.

Bigger firms tend to pay better maternity benefits but a lot require you to go back to work for a certain amount of time afterwards otherwise you have to pay it back so it may not be as appealing to stick it out on that basis alone.

It can be like this. It deIfinitely depends on team, culture and how proficient you are in your area. I have a vague recollection of 4 yr pqe being quite bad (was at magic circle). Later it got better and I loved the partners I worked for but I was independently confident by then.
Stick in, have your baby and then go in house or come back to private practice as its amazing how having kids increases your maturity/no-nonsense vibe (you just don't have time or head space to rewrite anything 6 times and you act accordingly).
It's a great long-term career. Either you make partner and you are in charge and make millions or you go into one of many niche sidelines. My current job is 4 days a week, with lovely clients from home and I earn well over 6 figures . My kids have a great standard of living money-wise and I see them all the time. It's just stressful when you are in the trenches and everyone senior to you has forgotten what it's like to be you.

Yes, we really struggle to recruit litigators in house, you would be snapped up @nestaarchy (and @minipie )

I remember this as a junior lawyer the marking up. Really knocked my self worth and self esteem. I left the law, go in-house OP! As a litigator there will be roles out there, get onto LinkedIn.

One thing I do try and do though is point out to more junior lawyers whether my amendments are just my personal style preferences or actual corrections because there is an error.

Slight tangent but as an ex city litigator- please move jobs NOW. I didn’t, I hung on because we were TTC and I wanted the mat pay and didn’t want to join a new place and then get preg too quickly. In the end it took 11 months to get pregnant… I clung on for 2 kids and then burned out from trying to juggle 2 non sleeping kids with City litigation. At that point I didn’t feel up to interviewing for in house, I became a reluctant SAHM. I really really wish I’d moved at the stage you’re at now, into a job that actually works with kids.

Agree by the way that endless mark ups are the way it is. I’ve had partners remove from the third draft sentences they had themselves inserted in the previous mark up… Does sound like yours are particularly rude about it though. We had a couple of those, they were notorious but luckily I didn’t work for them.

There are lots of different team cultures in different firms. Maybe you have a particularly critical group of partners, so is it worth moving elsewhere? At 4pqe you will be a very attractive hire and you can’t be fired for being pregnant. Equally there is value in learning to accept what you cannot change, including the fact that even when you do things just as asked, you will get inevitable feedback and changes. Many lawyers are absolute buggers when it comes to reworking / redoing documents - just can’t help it! And disputes in my experience often attracts real perfectionist pedants.
Finally, is there any possibility you’re not interpreting instructions correctly? Always worth considering. I do know many partners who complain that lots of the younger cohort are very thin skinned, say they want feedback but really just want a lot of positive affirmation.

More generally building up your resilience and learning to manage any anxiety will be very important. That starts with your own inner voice

I agree with others. The first draft is often the hardest. The next step is often to pull it apart a bit and shift things around. Or even think it over and realise a different structure is better. That doesn't mean what you did isn't good,.it's just part of the process.

Indeed I would only want to give the task to someone who would make a decent stab at the first draft so I had something worthwhile to build on.

Agree too though that litigation gets way more than it's fair share of wankers.

It sounds as if you are doing a good job - and no doubt if you weren't, you'd have been told so! I think quite often it's the case in these types of work that you agree to draft something according to Plan A, it's drafted, and on revision and consideration, the flaws in Plan A become clear and therefore you get a list of XYZ that needs to be altered.
It's not personal, it's a style and a pattern of hard, focused work, not an attack. Litigation is fast-moving and changing, but it doesn't mean you aren't good at it. It does suit some people - I certainly don't mind it, because it is low on verbiage, focused, and doesn't particularly upset me. I don't think I'd be a particularly good people-manager or team leader, though, and fortunately for all concerned I'm not.
I'm a lot more senior than you, which almost certainly makes it much easier.
Is it possible you'd enjoy a different area of law more? There are a lot of different possibilities, can you look at a sideways shift?

This is really team specific, very much a culture issue. But it is compounded by being in Litigation.

I felt so stressed when I was doing litigation and eventually I left that division. What a relief. I had a sector specialism that allows me to move across to a contentious-and-non-contentious role in another part of the firm that needed me, then I just sort of stayed. Can 100% recommend. Plus transactional lawyers get paid more in my firm.

Litigation attracts some Grade A wankers.