Axel Rudakubana

I don't think they are, but they hold a grudge against prisoners for crimes against women and girls, even if they've done similar themselves. I had a friend years ago who was in and out of jail and he said one of the worst bits was that you pretty much HAD to participate in beating the daylights out of anyone who admitted they were in for rape or DV, or the other prisoners would do the same to you. There's a reason that prisons have special wings for paedophiles, and the chances are he'll also be separated from other prisoners, but there's a likelihood they'll get to him eventually.

What were the missed opportunities that would have worked?

What intervention do you mean?

Im yet to hear anything on any of these threads that would make a difference to people like this they are mainly males but not always.

The trajectory is usually that a child is excluded at school, then sent to another school or a PRU, then excluded from the PRU, then long gaps in education because no school will take him. Do you want your child in a classroom with him? Do you want to teach someone like this?
So where does he go for school? That means then he is at home nearly all the time, perhaps parents work or cant supervise him due to being fearful of his violence, so then he is given 'online tuition', an hour a week or so, but that means he has to be on the internet and so is likely to spend a lot of time on the internet, watching god knows what.

Thats without whatever else might be going on

Are you saying he shouldn’t be punished?

I agree with your latter point that it would be difficult for the public to hear that someone like this is deemed 'mentally ill', just look at the theoretical outrage on here from simply discussing it

I wouldnt say he is the wrong colour for a MH defense, we know that people of colour are over represented (read - over diagnosed) with in MH services.

I think you might be reading into it, things that arent really there

He had tried apparently go on sprees like this before hadnt he, the father stopping him from going out one time, Im not sure the timing has any relevance to his planning about how old he was, he had been building up to this or wanting to hurt people for years, all his teen years. I wouldnt have thought he could give a stuff to the consequences, people like this dont care about the consequences.

Additionally you seem to be assuming that someone who is in psychosis has no awareness of what they are doing so cant make a choice to a) attack gym goers b) attack a dance class,

Theres no evidence he was experiencing psychosis at the time of the murders, Im just correcting your assumption about how psychosis works

It doesnt absolve him of responsbility to say he isnt right in the head does it?

And while that may be a very non medical and non professional way of describing someone who isnt...erm... right in the head, thats what he is isnt it?

If you're a MH practitioner you will have learned in your studies how fluid and changable thinking around what an illness is or what a disorder is or what can be called an illness and disorder and how regularly the manuals change and will continue to change. As another poster said the whole concept of criminally insane is problematic when we're talking about someone like this. And even when we're talking about most people who are in prison the vast vast majority have MH illnesses/disorders but are not considered in any way different or special in terms of prison need, ie they are not in hospital. Just like this bloke wont be, unless he needs to be

And Im interested in the tone of discussion on this forum in particular in any case that he certainly doesnt have any MH illness because the report said so, or the report wasnt even there so it must be, when normally posters on any other thread about an 18 year old are chomping at the bit to emphasise that the said 18 year old's brain is not yet developed and wont be until they're 25 and therefore they are less responsible or not able to make the right choices blah blah blah

Very different on this thread

You don’t have to consent to assessment to be diagnosed under these sorts of circumstances

This romantic view that other prisoners are salt of the earth types ready to do rough justice is so bizarre. The other prisoners are likely murderers and rapists themselves and will be looking out for themselves.

Rubbish, children and adults like this were institutionalised and then everyone got upset at locking people away who hadnt done anything and then conveniently the government of the day invented 'care in the community' which just so happened to cost less at source (forget the rising cost of hospital admissions, police time and social services interventions)

And in the climate of an ever increasing call to have children who would have been in specialist provisions previously, now in mainstream provisions/schools, this is what it has come to.

Bring back asylums - can the country afford this when there is no rehabilitation potential

In the past some people were sectioned and locked away unfairly and incorrectly, which was wrong. Correcting this by permission being sought from the individual first before anything is state actioned, is not the solution. As seems usual, to right a wrong the pendulum swings too far the other way.

Am I not right in thinking that 52 years is still close to being a whole life sentence? Okay, unfortunately, he could still theoretically get out aged 70, but somehow I doubt it. Prisoners generally die significantly earlier than members of the general public.

Unfortunately, I don't think this case could have been prevented. Some people are just evil. It would be comforting to think that somehow the right treatment or intervention could fix someone who wanted to commit violent crimes, but sometimes people are just plain evil, but otherwise of sound mind.

I don’t know what to call it because I don’t know what the word is for such acts. But I do know that he’s been assessed and he’s been deemed to be of sound mind hence his guilty plea was accepted and no mitigation was offered as a defence. Sometimes there aren’t words for what people are it’s just an aberration. It makes the rest of us more comfortable to label people who behave in ways we can’t fully comprehend it distances us from their depravity to pop it in an box far away from us.

Yes, not uncommon, the public dont really know about this sort of thing. The children will be probably subject to DOLs, which is reviewed by a court and not always agreed

YOu have to be lucky to find staff to work with people like this, they risk getting attacked but also the children making allegations about the staff so that it prevents staff restraining them.

Also you can lock doors and windows and restrict internet use or phone use but ultimately some young people will just cause criminal damage, attack staff, smash a window and get out

After a while the appetite for the DOLs dwindles when its not seen as being effective,w hat is the point of depriving the liberty when its not doing its job

At adulthood its not likely any DOLs will continue, its problematic post 17 anyway, so these kids will be out in the community, they dont have to comply with anything.

I think he did. He shouldn't have been allowed to cheat the system in this way. The judge said had he been just 9 days older he would have issued whole life sentence.

I think as a society we need to accept that, this thread and the others on this subject are an example of this

So many posters thinking you can just section someone, or children will be detained or dealt with by youth justice and it will 'fix' things, or there will be some sort of magic intervention

There isnt much that can be done. Youth justice teams work very hard not to criminalise children, crime after crime after crime gets dealt with by NFA or at most some sort of toothless referral order.
There is no therapy you can 'force' on someone even if it existed and we dont have effective MH systems for children or adults
Hospital teams work hard not to hospitalise people with ASD because it is said to be traumatic for them
Prevent work with specific terrorism and no, just wanting to harm people, even if specifically targeted at women, is not terrorism as such, and in any case as I said earlier or on another thread (Ive lost track), they also cant force someone to work with them

What is it people will accept as a solution to people like this? Most parents dont want their kids locked up or punished on the basis of 'they might' do something.

This

The point is the court didn't feel it was his MH or unfit to trial. I personally think he's an evil scumbag, but that's me.

Have you got any idea how many people on trials and in prisons have MH issues/illnesses?

Its fairly bog standard, just because its not been a major part of discussion in court doesnt mean anything. He isnt normal by any stretch is he?

If not mentally disordered in some way what would you call it?

@caringcarer I do wonder if he deliberately committed the crime just before his 18th birthday in an attempt to cheat justice.

The good thing about Broadmoor is that people are detained until they are better. The psychiatrists are obviously selected because of their willingness to never let dangerous nutjobs back into society.

If he ended up in Broadmoor, the minimum term would be irrelevant - it would become a de facto whole life term.

The only problem is that Broadmoor is classed as a hospital, rather than a prison, and conditions are much nicer and I want him to suffer - although the 'patients' are much more likely to chop him up and eat his spleen.

I'm so sick of the 'human rights' of evil people always being taken into account but never the innocent victims 'human rights' to live taken into account. Kier Starmer said he won't look at whole life sentences for people under 18 as against their 'human rights' as a child. He was only 9 days short of being 18 and he knew what he was doing. He planned it all. He showed no remorse whatsoever. No human rights even to live for those little girls. The law needs changing to over 16 provided the prosecution can prove they knew what they were doing so premeditated and motivation to murder demonstrated.

And people still say he isn't evil.

Alder Hey have confirmed he was under their care for 4 years but stopped engaging with them and their offers of mental health care after 2023.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgmn1rxpk4o

By then he'd already been rejected by PREVENT 3 times

@Reugny I’m not saying we lock up children I’m saying if you have these teenagers over the age of criminal responsibility who cannot possibly be helped into being functioning members of society because they are violent, obsessed with hurting others and do not understand that they are wrong and they can’t have their own way then what do you do with them? This individual did get lots of intervention and extras that most kids don’t get but it made no odds and what we’re actually lamenting is that someone didn’t step in from family, ss, prevent, camhs or the police and stop him through presumably medicating his tendencies away or locking him up due to his previous crimes. We could spend millions on therapy and courses and support but these things only work if the person themselves wants to change.