Axel Rudakubana

If he had a diagnosable condition that was the cause of his actions, then either he could not be tried, or he would be found not guilty on the grounds of diminished responsibility.

If considered too dangerous to be in society, he'd be sent to a secure hospital, as a patient. And if he recovered, then he'd be released.

If someone is ill, that is the humane course.

People who are arrested/charged are very carefully and thoroughly assessed. He was found fit to stand trial, has been convicted and is in prison.

I dont disagree with any of what you've said

Yes MH services too easily opt out, however in their defence, how can you 'work' with someone who doesnt want to engage, what do you do, force yourself into their house and force therapy on them, how does that work?

So lets say they're face with this child, aged 13 or 14 or whatever. You know that his parents are worried because he obsessively collects information about killing and death and talks about it a lot. So they offer an appointment and even if he turns up, if he wont talk or wont meet with them, what do they do?

Theres no evidence of illness or disorder so what do they do?

Ive already said on other posts, we need to make a choice as a society that we start to limit peoples freedoms and take away liberty when there is no MH disorder AND they havent committed a crime

Or we accept that these things will happen.

Personally Im getting frustrated with the amount of impact anti social and disordered or disturbed people have on us as a society because we dont want to limit peoples freedoms. I getting tired of the majority needing to tolerate a minority who cause problems for the majority.

Does anyone know what happens in say Europe to any child who is clearly heading down this sort of horrific path? What interventions if any are taken and when? I can't believe somewhere like Sweden for instance would just leave them to do their worst or maybe they do?

I once took an Uber where the driver was listening to the radio or a podcast about the killing of black people in a country where there are supposed none black people left. I was a bit scare of the way he was talking about it. I investigated a bit and it turned out it is just rumours or one of those stories that are not true or could never be confirmed from about two centuries ago. The driver was black and very upset and saying that white people would pay for what they did.
I really despair about the amount of lies people are told and for what purposed? The amount of hateful literature and how it is now normalised to hate white people and to openly to call the elderly white people gammons and other pejorative things.
Who knows how much rubbish this kid was consuming online to become so hateful and a murderer? it is all out there in your face in bookstores and social media.

Are you suggesting that a diagnosis would pardon his actions?

It's more complicated than this.
Black people are under represented in outpatient settings, but over represented in inpatient settings. Possible reasons have often been speculated but still remain poorly understood.

No, just evil to the bone.

I agree to an extent @soupfiend inquiries are like us looking for reasons people got a disease so we can convince ourselves it won't happen to us/won't happen again.m, and politicians love them as it looks decisive.

Look at Grenfell - and yet we have a govt who wants to build build build and cut 'red tape' to do so.

Generally, isn't it a problem that mental health services give up if people stop engaging? It certainly doesn't point to them being healthy...

I guess what a lot of people are thinking is that he's probably, like a lot of violent criminals, incurably distorted of thought, so where does the buck stop?

It will be interesting to see what the tone will be.

Its unpalatable to think that there is little (apart from locking up people who havent actually done anything yet) that can be done to stop this sort of thing

So its better for us to believe that there was systemic failure, because that implies there are ways and means to have prevented this, but by failure, we didnt manage it. It suggests that all the right services and support are there, and can protect us. I debate that

This thread has largely concluded that he had no and has no MH illness or condition. And yet one of your points is that someone engaging with MH services shouldnt be allowed to opt out and that should trigger the opposite (ie forced engagement I think you are implying?)
And yet the vast majority of people think he didnt have MH issues so what would the engagement be for, to do what with?

The police have a strong policy of not dealing with social issues, behavioural issues, MH issues. Lots of childrens behaviour which is violent is considered either behavioural or MH. CAMHS usually disagree and say its behavioural. While parents are ringing their hands, neighbours and bystanders would say the behaviour is criminal behaviour and should be dealt with via youth justice.

So round and round it goes.

The tone will be interesting.

You know the inquiry will find multiple systemic failures:

1. Prevent - dismissed due to no ideological motive
2. police - his own parents phoned 4 times...
3. discharging mh patients that stop engaging (which ideally would trigger the opposite)
4. no action after being found with knife
5. no joined up response across services

Etc.

@soupfiend v depressing that the knife offences wouldn't trigger anything...

At hospital?

I read it as being under the Alder Hey NHS trust so that would be CAMHS, being under CAMHS for that time

And that can mean a whole myriad of things, like simply being reviewed for ASD once in a while, perhaps they offered the odd appointment, did he attend or not, did parents attend, were parents even offered appointments.

I cant tell you the number of kids that are 'open' to CAMHS, virtually in name only. It means nothing

Perhaps Im being unfair to CAMHS and they were giving him regular psychotherapy or making regular referrals for MHA assessments.

Do we know what his parents did, like after getting him out the taxi to kill did his dad report him?
After he rang child line and had to be restrained in class etc.

I've already addressed this with the other poster.

He pleaded guilty and was sentenced to fifty years in prison. He doesn't have a case.

Wrong terminology I guess. Giving him airtime, allowing people to discuss the ifs and buts and what's about how he got there, him being given help.

He deserves to be locked up amd never spoken of again. I'm sure in the cold light of day I would maybe be more likely to take your point in board but not one day after those details.

That said, you can't manage the behaviour of someone who wants to murder children. Only one place for him, but sadly we have to pay for him to live another however many years

He was receiving mental health treatment at Alder Hey hospital from 2019 until February of last year when he stopped engaging with it.

If a judge were to disregard mitigation, the sentence would be appealed. Presumably you don't want a lesser sentence?
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/html-publication/item/aggravating-and-mitigating-factors-in-sentencing-guidelines-and-their-expanded-explanations-research-report/

I've seen so much around extremism and mental illness, and honestly I just think some people are bad. Evil. There's no rhyme or reason.

Maybe tighter immigration could have saved those girls.

But I compare actions like this to other serial/mass murderers. Take Ted Bundy walking into that sorority and murdering/harming multiple girls in one night.

Tighter immigration laws in America wouldn't have saved them. He was fit to stand trial and be a "normal" member of society to everyone else.

Just evil.

Strengthening his case!

What case is that?

He plead guilty, hes pleased with what he did, he couldnt give a stuff about consequences, he isnt coming out ever. There isnt a 'case'.

I dont personally believe in evil, I think that gives an opt out to work out how we prevent these things, having very very tight definitions of what is an illness or disorder has been unhelpful in my view over the past 40 years (and more but thats how far back my work goes in this field) because there now isnt a descriptor for him or strategies or theories about how to manage this type of behaviour.

To quote the silence of the lambs ‘there’s not a name for what he is’

Not yet but it's coming in the next few years unfortunately with the new mental health act and so things will get much worse.
Currently there just has to be 'appropriate treatment available' It doesn't have to actually work for them or they may be refusing the intervention, for example, therapy

Well I suppose I would apply that logic to the explanation that someone is 'evil'

I have a mental illness but Im of a sound mind. I suffer an illness but Im compos mentis, I make informed choices and know what Im doing day to day. The two are not mutually exclusive

The problem why we dont know what to call it is that there has developed such a narrow definition of MH illness or disorder that there is nothing that really fits with someone like this.

But like others have said, he isnt mentally right, probably lots of layers of why that is, but he isnt like you and me (assuming you are not like him!)

That's not what we are debating.

There was no mental health issues found by professionals who know what they're doing. Trying to give him one is only strengthening his case.

He's evil, and that's that.

You dont have be unfit to plead for someone to have MH issues.

The point is, a crime doesnt have to be down to criminal insanity, to discount that someone isnt mentally right. He isnt mentally right is he?

Ive worked with lots of children who have committed similar or worse crimes. They are rarely charged, certainly wouldnt be for carrying a knife. The attack might have been or had potential, but usually its dealt with by way of restorative approaches or NFA, if there is a charge and resulting prosecution, you can be sure the child's solicitor will fight to bring out every piece of evidence of disorders (in this case he had ASD) and therefore NFA, if that doesnt happen and prosecution continues and the child is guilty, its usually a referral order being made

What do you think happens then? Nothing!