To think we need to re-think security for children's schools and clubs following Southport

How exactly are you locking your brownie group in? A fire is much more likely than an attacker and your risk assessment should reflect that, people inside need to be able to get out quickly without a key.

It’s horrible the way this thread is going tbh. It’s uncomfortable reading. Sounds a bit like ‘if they’d done X then Y wouldn’t have happen.

I agree with the majority that this is not the way forward. When picking clubs and activities, I am very conscious of their safeguarding practices to ensure they are fully aware of who is entering and leaving premises, where children are, checking which adults collect children etc but everything locked is not realistic.

I have sporty children who train for football on open fields, play tennis and cricket in clubs where anyone could barge past reception if they desperately wanted to (and someone like the perpetrator in this case could well be a member with their own family). They also attend holiday clubs at all three. They also go on trips with school where an incident could happen but we can’t live our life avoiding everything in case of rare events.

It is also all well saying you are with your child at the park but if they’re any older than 6, chances are they are playing while you are standing/sitting at the side watching. If someone ran into the playground brandishing a knife you would try protect them but it doesn’t guarantee safety either.

The government need to be working on the root cause of these issues, locking children up is just not the answer

I think by law all schools/holiday clubs/childcare settings need high, locked anti-climb gates surrounding entire perimeter, plus video surveillance and an on-site security gaurd monitoring this.

And who is going to pay for it?

And for activities which take place in church halls, such as Brownies, Cubs etc, it just won't be feasible.

Most decent schools are already locked to outsiders during the day. Sites are fenced and bolted, although this offers limited security.

We have to remember these are schools, not prisons. Somehow we have to find a balance that does not make children feel like they are imprisoned, or that they are at risk.

There isn't an easy answer.

Ive often thought this about my brownie group to be honest. We meet in essentially a portakabin in a small park owned by a charity. There's no cctv, no buzzer etc. We don't have the money to install anything like that and neither do the charity we rent off. We love it because in the summer we are inside, outside, free flowing, playing games, building fires etc. But it makes security a lot harder. The problem is that to move venues to a nicer building with more security would dramatically increase costs and likely make our sessions unaffordable to many of the girls who come to us. Clubs are already closing in London due to a lack of affordable community centres. So it becomes a balance of risk vs the opportunities we can offer. So tricky and I've definitely become more cautious since having my own DC.

If someone wants to harm children I’m afraid they will find a way. What about public transport? Or children walking from/to school and clubs in big groups? What about playgrounds, kids playing football or basketball in their local field? Street fairs, libraries, eating out in McDonald’s ? there are so many places where children congregate You can’t protect them in every situation, as I said if a sick individual wants to harm someone they will find a way.
Not to mention funding and the already existing levels of bureaucracy and additional requirements placed on teachers and support staff.

Agree. Many schools and nurseries now have high locked fences, camera doorbells. Yet sometimes the school field or nursery garden has a normal low fence that a stranger could easily hop over, so the front of house security is more a deterrent or designed to give parents a false sense of security. I think by law all schools/holiday clubs/childcare settings need high, locked anti-climb gates surrounding entire perimeter, plus video surveillance and an on-site security gaurd monitoring this. Video-cam lock on gate that visitors enter by. Another video-cam door so receptionist can let them into building and verify who they are (prospective parents/people coming for maintenance work/social work staff etc).

Especially for younger children or those in childminder care.

I find large playgroups, remote walks, open splashpads, even places like zoos unsettling as so many people don't watch their toddlers 1:1. Or childminder takes a handful of preschoolers, how can she keep track of them all, plus be aware of surroundings? A lone male approaching or lingering near a place aimed at children raises red flags for me. I prefer places like our local leisure centre, which has locked doors to areas for children, plus you can't attend soft play sessions, children's pool or kids dance without a kid!

Schools are locked.
But church halls and gyms used by scouts and guides often open their firedoors for fresh air in summer. I appreciate this is a security risk but I also think that stifling kids in over hot buildings without fresh air flow because 'it's too dangerous to open the door' is not the way we want to live. I think we need to keep this event in proportion as the extremely rare occurrence (thank goodness) t hat it is.

I was a school child when Dunblane happened. After it our doors were locked & had security entrances/staff watching.

I think we should ensure that other child venues are the same.

No, absolutely. But I'm with them at the park.

You won't always be with them, though. They'll reach an age when they can and should be going to the park and elsewhere without an adult.

And tragic as the events in Southport are, children are still most at risk from adults known to them, not random strangers.

Haha. Some, possibly, do. Many don’t.

I think our society would be better served using the money you want for extra school security on improving mental health services. The Southport killer had long term MH challenges, perhaps with better services this could have been prevented.

I have a child with mental health struggles. There is literally no fucking help. I will do my best but I'm not a psychotherapist. He can't attend school due o his behaviour so he can't get outside help there. There are no services from children's mental health to support him. He's already violent but no one blames him because he's such a small child- but he won't be a small child forever. I've joined a lot of support groups for parents of children out of school. Sooooo many of them have serious behavioural difficulties often violence and the parent and child are begging for help but there is none. It's a HUGE problem but instead of getting worried for the future or demeaning our governments provide mental health help to stop these kids growing into violent adults the public bats for the blood of those who snap and kill.

Killing is always wrong the Southport guy is evil. But we have to acknowledge he was a victim too and may not have turned out how he did if the services were there to intervene

What will you do when they are older and out and about by themselves? At the gym for example?

It's not always possible. My kids attend a holiday club at the leisure centre which is impossible to keep fully secure. You can't get in unless you either have a members card or are dropping off/picking your kids up but it would be very easy to get round it if you were determined enough.

I fully agree with keeping primary schools and nurseries locked at all times but that's mainly from an escape point of view.

There are too many areas in life where it's easy to target people individually/in groups. Young teenagers are getting stabbed on the bus, you can't avoid that but what we need to try and fix is the reason why it's happening.

Keeping children isolated isn't going to help as they grow up.

It's hard, it's really hard. Mine are 7 and 9, approaching 8 and 10 and I need to start letting go and giving them age appropriate independence and it's something we are working on. There are so many dangers in the world and we can't prevent them all.

No, schools should already have safeguards in place although there is only so much they can do without turning them into prison type buildings,

I think of the activities my children attend it would be impossible, sports on an playing field for example, how would you secure that? Scout camps? Churches? Then just every day things like going to the park or a soft play centre or a bus at school times? Visiting the zoo or museums,

There needs to be consideration for how easy it is to get out of a building for a child, as well, for example in case of fire. Locking out threats from the outside is all well and good, but it's sadly not as if a child is safe just because they're in a locked building, even if they are with adults. An adult in charge could have a health crisis, or, scarily, could be nefarious themselves.

In an ideal world, yes. But in an ideal world, we would all be safe and it wouldn't be a topic.

In reality - who would pay for it?

I live near Southport and a few places we go to improved their security very quickly (very upsetting that it was needed) - a main door that can only be opened from the inside. I presumed most primary schools already did have the doors locked...

Good clubs already do this. I don't let my children attend clubs where this isn't the case.

I think that your school and nursery are very unusual to leave doors open. My experience has been the opposite - there’s a door that easily opens to Reception but the rest of the school is closed to people without a door pass which is fair enough.

The problem with relying on technology too much is that kids don’t learn to develop “street smarts” and instincts when things aren’t right. I’m obviously talking about the older end of primary school here but before they are travelling to secondary on their own, they need to have developed some sense. For example the light might be green for pedestrians but they shouldn’t cross if there’s a car that looks like it’s not slowing down. If a dog owner isn’t paying attention or seemingly struggling to control their dog then they might want to cross the road etc

Unfortunately you can’t reduce the risk to zero and being over zealous could result in an anxious kid who ends up with no independence skills. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t consider safety at all but make sure your fears don’t overshadow the joys of living and the fact that one day your kids will want some freedom and need to be ready.

Schools do take safeguarding children very seriously with very regular checks of policy, procedure and risk assessment by governors, LA officers ( if not in a trust) and leaders. This includes site security, assessment of identified risk and patterns and actions to address identified changes.

The curriculum also helps children to be safe. The most sensible primary age pupil that I asked...

‘do you feel safe at school?’ and ‘how does school keep you safe?’ answered

‘I do feel safe at school, but no-one, including school can keep me safe all of the time, I need to learn to do that too’.

Surely if someone has ill intent towards others, how can you prevent that entirely....unless the entire population is going to be accompanied by armed guards at all times... every time you step out of your house, there's a chance of something dreadful happening

Gosh yes. I’m so sorry - this was a really bad fail on my part. I really didn’t mean to cause potential offence ❤️

Exactly . And parents thunder along the roads outside schools like they are oblivious to the fact they are driving giant killing machines