To think we need to re-think security for children's schools and clubs following Southport

I don't think imprisoning children at all times is the answer.

I also agree with other posters who warn that smart phones/SM/the internet is much much more dangerous.

Sure - but addressing cases like this guy means something closer to the latter, long-term involuntary psychiatric admission. The father stopping him from going to the school the week before should have triggered it if nothing else.

I just think when we are unclear about what we mean, politicians will respond with something totally unrelated like "in order to stop the next Rudakabana, we will be encouraging all schools to host a meditation class on Mental Health Awareness Day".

Both are "mental health initiatives" but they are qualitatively very different.

That's because the services that exist depend on exactly where you are. They also frequently change names and stop existing due to funding cuts/lack of staff.

Yes, sadly so many parents out there just do not realise.

Range of reasons I suppose.

Fill in the gap..

naive/unconcerned/busy/lazy/irresponsible/ineffective/misinformed/ not bothered/unable to control etc etc.

We are too vague with the term "mental health services" and it makes conversations like this difficult.

Many people interpret it to mean something like giving him access to counselling or talk therapy or a community basketball hoop or something, because "mental health crisis" is used to refer to the epidemic of 16yo girls being anxious or stressed about sexting etc.

Others interpret it to mean sectioning, locked psychiatric hospitals, asylums etc - physically restraining people deemed too violently unsafe to be in the community.

The main security threat in schools is parents or former pupils with grudges. Most schools are at a proportionate level of security to the risk level. School safeguarding/ security is also largely keeping children in and accounted for.

Many youth groups are in comminity facilities. At ours, we lock doors to prevent walk-ins from parents or randoms wanting to use the toilet. We open the fire doors of the main room to a small "patio" for ventilation and use that space for activities in good weather the space is supervised by multiple leaders. Youth group ratios are better than in classrooms.
For fire safety, the risk assessment is to leave the gates unlocked for quick exit. Fire safety is a more serious concern than randomly being targeted by a terrorist or violent mental health crisis. The committee running the facility couldn't afford to fortify the building. Much of it's security is directed at anti-vandalism, not intruders.
Meanwhile it's surrounded by open, public sports fields and facilities full of use by young people anyway.

Some organisations will be due a security review and upgrades, but the general culture of health and safety is proportionate to the risks.

If anything we need more, accessible, low cost youth activities, not literal barriers to them. If young people are engaged in physically and mentally healthy community activities, they're not being drawn into gangs, county lines or the dark web which are what corrupt young people into dangerous behaviour.

The fact that society was horrified is a testement to it being rare.

There is no point in children being locked up behind fortified gates all the time. They need open space. There are always minute risks. Attacks have been held in shopping centres, concerts, public transport, the street. What isn't safe for many reasons is keeping them isolated at home with unrestricted use to the internet.

This thing with primary schools is the children are generally small, and the staff predominantly female.
So a particularly vulnerable group.

Secondary will have some big lads, and male teachers so as a group less vulnerable to attack.

The Southport attack he deliberately attacked a young woman and small children
He wasn't brave enough to look for a martial arts class or boxing class he choose a dance class.

I can see a whole lot of places where people gather where such things can happen.

But they are vanishingly rare.

How much security do people want to accept in their lives to feel safe versus the probability of something tragic happening?

The Southpiort tragedy was such an awful event but events like that rarely happen.

Go in the main entrance door, which is electric operated sliding doors, one door, lobby and window to reception, second door. Those two doors do not open at the same time. And there's no handle to force them.

During breaks two doors into the playground are kept open for kids to get to toilets.

Staff have fobs they buzz then the door pushes inwards, there are no handles, the door buzzes open from the office and you push it in, there are handles on the inside to get out.

I agree but this offender has obviously been of sound mind enough to stand trial and be held in a mainstream prison. I doubt he would have made the threshold to be held in any kind of secure unit, he isn’t actually mentally ill is he? Just evil and the two don’t go hand in hand.

I'm sure that in the Southport case, the main door was locked (you can see that from taxi footage), but they had opened a door upstairs for fresh air because it was hot that day. I mean, why shouldn't they have been able to do that and not give it a second thought?. We need to get to the root of the problem in this country . If this monster had been dealt with on the previous occasions he displayed concerning behaviour ,this would never have happened. Locked doors on not.

I disagree, what we need is more funding for police, mental health and social services. The individual that carried out these particular attacks was known and had some pretty significant red flags about him already.

My kids school has no door handles on the outside. The doors the kids use can only be opened from the inside.

What if someone legitimately needs to get in?

This. We have enough "safety" stuff already, for the most part.

As I said on the thread about kitchen knives, the UK needs to sort out its prisons and get to grips with the idea that some psychiatric patients cannot manage their conditions safely as outpatients and may need to be put in secure psychiatric units long-term. (Yes, that costs money. The damage that these people cause across society as a whole when not locked up is, however, a lot more expensive)

I have armed myself with some Jif lemon and any fucker trying this is getting a spray of tart lemon full on in the eyes. But officer. I’m a little old lady, and have this in my pocket as I like baking and forgot to take it out as my memory is going.

I agree @Burntt please do not stop until you get help , bless you.

But sorry, he's not a victim

The majority of secondary schools have an open door at morning, break , lunch and end of day.

The problem is it can happen anywhere. I've always found it interesting with the security at airports but walk into a big shopping centre, train station, theatre...

I think the difference between an open farm or football pitch is more places for kids to run.
In a hall or somewhere kids are trapped. He shouldn't have been able just to wander into the studio.

But bottom line he's just an evil evil bastard and a coward at that. He wasn't ever going to attempt to attack boys at a football match where there are more likely to be Men around that would do him some damage.
He choose to attack wee girls and a young female teacher.

I don't normally believe in the death sentence. But he is pure evil, what's the point in keeping him alive in a cell for the next 50 years?

My sons school all doors are locked except at drop off and collection times . You have to be let in at reception if you want access once in reception the doors into school are locked and reception is behind a glass partition

Where does it end? I know a lot of riding schools that offer holiday clubs for kids, as well as the usual riding lessons. You can’t securely fence and lock a whole farm. Or what about Sunday football matches on playing fields? What happened was beyond awful, but was a rogue event and it shouldn’t lead to all children being locked up to the point of not having a normal childhood.

Would have made it harder for him if he hadn't been able to.just walk in though.

How's it not?

My kids school has no door handles on the outside. The doors the kids use can only be opened from the inside.
The main entrance is two sliding doors. With a lobby between them. The outside must close before the inside opens. And vice versa.

It's fairly new built after Dunblane with security in mind but no reason for other schools not to at least change the doors to high security doors.