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AIBU?

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No treatment options from consultant.

64 replies

BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 18:09

OH has PAD . He was referred for an MRI looking at getting an angioplasty done after the results.

He saw the consultant today who said there are no treatment options, that the other doctor who mentioned angioplasty was on another planet and all he can do is to stop smoking. I read the letter so this is not coming just from OH. It even mentions that if it gets worse or his leg is at risk, there still isn't much they can do.

They won't even attempt an angioplasty or a stent or a bypass. Nothing they can do and they won't see him again either, just get referred again if things get worse/anything changes.

It literally says in the letter that his recovery is entirely up to OH . Stop smoking, exercise more and that's it. He will stop smoking, so that isn't an issue.

AIBU to think this can't be it?

I want OH to get a second opinion at the very least.Might even look at private, but I have no idea where to start.

OP posts:
BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 22:48

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 22/01/2025 22:15

Has he tried Stop Smoking Therapy before ?

They can help if the smoker wants to stop but if they choose to continue they're limited .Our local services asks "Are you ready to stop smoking" and if they answer "Not really" or "no" then they don't proceed /
Choose isn't the "right" word , smoking is so addictive , Though the banning of smoking in most public places and the ££ it costs are a good incentive to quit .

He was engaged with a stop smoking service before. Went to appts , in contact with the person doing it(consultant?!?) . They requested several times the gp prescribes him meds to help, several emails went unanswered and the GP refused to prescribe. He's looking at ordering them privately now. Well he already filled in an online consultation with Lloyds pharmacy and waiting to see if it goes through.

OP posts:
Tiniesttine · 22/01/2025 22:46

@BlueSilverCats I’m so sorry you are having to deal with this, it’s really tough, especially when it’s your loved one who has to make the necessary changes. It’s a horrible addiction in that some people will never give up even when they know it will lead to their death….I do hope your OH can make that choice, sometimes people need to understand that it’s not just atherosclerosis in the legs that will be occurring it will be happening in the major vessels too and puts him at increased risk of heart attack or other cardio- vascular events. Have you any other family members or friends who he listens to , that might be persuaded to talk it over with him?

PeriPeriMam · 22/01/2025 22:36

BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 21:44

@Carriemac here goes nothing.

Unfortunately there
is complete occlusion of his superficial femoral artery as well as proximal popliteal artery. The distal popliteal artery is
BeeGentle but diseased. His run-off vessels are also diseased only peroneal being open. Anterior tibial is diseased and
posterior tibial is occluded.
We have had detailed discussion on management. Surgical or radiological management is not an option in this case. He
continues to smoke and I have emphasised that it is absolutely essential that he must stop smoking because that is 1 single
factor that will determine the future of his leg. In addition he must keep on walking because, unfortunately there is a lot
of collaterals developing in the thigh and hopefully things will improve with time. His risk factors are all modulated and managed.
I do not need to see him on regular basis but he must stop smoking and walk as much as he can. If he develops tissue loss or
rest pain in his foot then please refer him back for further vascular assessment. Even if that was to happen unfortunately
the options seem limited looking at his angiogram. So the key to his legs future is very much dependent on if he manages to
stop smoking completely which will not guarantee but will usually improve the prospects.

If it is as bad as it's been stated, please be gentle. I am probably being unreasonable...

That is a nice clear letter with very clear advice. There's no option to bypass because all the alternative routes are also in trouble. Stopping smoking and walking IS the treatment. That's not doing nothing,that's the treatment. It's just very hard.

Cynic17 · 22/01/2025 22:30

Looks like the consultant is trying to be clear and honest.

Azandme · 22/01/2025 22:28

Simply put there is no treatment option, and if he doesn't stop smoking immediately he will lose his leg, at best.

This is literally last chance saloon. It's clear from the letter he'd already been told to stop smoking, and hasn't.

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 22/01/2025 22:15

Has he tried Stop Smoking Therapy before ?

They can help if the smoker wants to stop but if they choose to continue they're limited .Our local services asks "Are you ready to stop smoking" and if they answer "Not really" or "no" then they don't proceed /
Choose isn't the "right" word , smoking is so addictive , Though the banning of smoking in most public places and the ££ it costs are a good incentive to quit .

Carriemac · 22/01/2025 22:13

my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/23560-collateral-circulation

Yes collaterals are what will save the leg if he follows advice and exercises and stops smoking .

No second option would change that , the op would be futile and presumably the second consultant had a clearer picture after the MRI hence the difference of opinion

Whydoeseveryonewanttoargue · 22/01/2025 22:12

I’m no doctor and don’t know rhe soecifc details, but from what you have said the doctor gave the right advice…

www.nhs.uk/conditions/peripheral-arterial-disease-pad/treatment/

Maternityquestion · 22/01/2025 22:10

Smoking cessation is likely not a gp service in your area but there will be a stop smoking service. Some times is pharmacy led or a service like ‘quit your way’ put it into google with your area and see what service is available.

Destiny123 · 22/01/2025 22:10

It's cos all the main flow pathways down the leg are blocked. Once they're totally clogged off you can't stent them open, and the vessels they'd consider as bypass routes to revascularise are also blocked

Collateral are when bits of the body with poor blood supply make alternative tiny routes through... u can improve them as said in the letter

He's at huge risk of amputation if keeps smoking, sorry x

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 22/01/2025 22:07

That letter really is a wake-up call.
Your husband needs to have it on the fridge and on his phone prominently to jolt him when he thinks about a smoke .

He sounds like his feet / foot are really vunerable (and there will be evidence available about the risks of gangrene and amputation which is a huge risk)

He needs to make sure there's no trauma to his feet and legs , if he works outdoors then his footwear needs to protect him. Check for holes and seams which can rub . Things like grit or stones in the shoes .
Indoors no barefeet .

But the smoking - yes he does need to quit , it;s good that he has cut down , he must;ve been suffering symptoms of the PAD to make him do this , but he needs to go non smoker .

carly2803 · 22/01/2025 22:03

pyjamarama · 22/01/2025 21:59

Ok, so essentially the blockages are too widespread, and too distal (in the lower leg) for angioplasty or bipass surgery. He has some evidence of new vessels opening up to compensate for the blocked ones, and exercise will encourage more to open up. Stop smoking so things don’t get worse.

this in a nutshell

stop smoking, exercise by walking or lose the leg and/or his life

bluntly

pyjamarama · 22/01/2025 21:59

BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 21:44

@Carriemac here goes nothing.

Unfortunately there
is complete occlusion of his superficial femoral artery as well as proximal popliteal artery. The distal popliteal artery is
BeeGentle but diseased. His run-off vessels are also diseased only peroneal being open. Anterior tibial is diseased and
posterior tibial is occluded.
We have had detailed discussion on management. Surgical or radiological management is not an option in this case. He
continues to smoke and I have emphasised that it is absolutely essential that he must stop smoking because that is 1 single
factor that will determine the future of his leg. In addition he must keep on walking because, unfortunately there is a lot
of collaterals developing in the thigh and hopefully things will improve with time. His risk factors are all modulated and managed.
I do not need to see him on regular basis but he must stop smoking and walk as much as he can. If he develops tissue loss or
rest pain in his foot then please refer him back for further vascular assessment. Even if that was to happen unfortunately
the options seem limited looking at his angiogram. So the key to his legs future is very much dependent on if he manages to
stop smoking completely which will not guarantee but will usually improve the prospects.

If it is as bad as it's been stated, please be gentle. I am probably being unreasonable...

Ok, so essentially the blockages are too widespread, and too distal (in the lower leg) for angioplasty or bipass surgery. He has some evidence of new vessels opening up to compensate for the blocked ones, and exercise will encourage more to open up. Stop smoking so things don’t get worse.

BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 21:44

@Carriemac here goes nothing.

Unfortunately there
is complete occlusion of his superficial femoral artery as well as proximal popliteal artery. The distal popliteal artery is
BeeGentle but diseased. His run-off vessels are also diseased only peroneal being open. Anterior tibial is diseased and
posterior tibial is occluded.
We have had detailed discussion on management. Surgical or radiological management is not an option in this case. He
continues to smoke and I have emphasised that it is absolutely essential that he must stop smoking because that is 1 single
factor that will determine the future of his leg. In addition he must keep on walking because, unfortunately there is a lot
of collaterals developing in the thigh and hopefully things will improve with time. His risk factors are all modulated and managed.
I do not need to see him on regular basis but he must stop smoking and walk as much as he can. If he develops tissue loss or
rest pain in his foot then please refer him back for further vascular assessment. Even if that was to happen unfortunately
the options seem limited looking at his angiogram. So the key to his legs future is very much dependent on if he manages to
stop smoking completely which will not guarantee but will usually improve the prospects.

If it is as bad as it's been stated, please be gentle. I am probably being unreasonable...

OP posts:
BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 21:42

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 22/01/2025 21:17

What's wrong with his foot?
Does he have diabetes ?

He doesn't have diabetes. Due to PDA , pain when walking (managed with painkillers) , numbness, very cold to the touch, very low pulse . Basically he's getting extremely low blood flow to it.

OP posts:
carly2803 · 22/01/2025 21:41

very good advice on here

possibly copy the letter wording here? may be more understandable

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 22/01/2025 21:17

What's wrong with his foot?
Does he have diabetes ?

Carriemac · 22/01/2025 20:59

Post the letter -
It may be clearer

BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 20:49

Porcuporpoise · 22/01/2025 20:42

You seem very confident that he'll be able to make the necessary lifestyle changes @BlueSilverCats . Are you prepared for the idea that he may not. He hasn't so far and they're very difficult things to do.

If he doesn't, then it's his own damn fault, especially if it's the ONLY solution. Maybe that's why I'm hoping there is/should be a plan B. Just in case. He is adamant he'll do it, he's absolutely terrified too,but then again, that's easy to say on day 1.

He's looking atm at getting the stop smoking meds privately. I did tell him to try gp again in light of this latest development as they might change their mind, but he said there's no point. He's probably not fully rational either , given it's him actually with the condition.

Apologies for rambling, hope some of this makes sense.

OP posts:
Porcuporpoise · 22/01/2025 20:42

You seem very confident that he'll be able to make the necessary lifestyle changes @BlueSilverCats . Are you prepared for the idea that he may not. He hasn't so far and they're very difficult things to do.

BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 20:39

I can post the exact wording of the letter with the exact issues if anyone with experience is willing to have a look. I just fear that indeed there is nothing else to be done, which is not what I want to hear, but I'm willing to accept it.

OP posts:
BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 20:37

Tiniesttine · 22/01/2025 20:16

@BlueSilverCats op, here is the link to the NICE guidelines https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg147. And to the NHS website guidance www.nhs.uk/conditions/peripheral-arterial-disease-pad/. I think anyone should be entitled to a second opinion but I would suggest you first ask the consultant to explain their reasoning and to set out more clearly what steps he needs to take and under what circumstances to go back to seek help. It may be that the specific areas of atherosclerosis causing his symptoms are not suitable for surgical measures. Lifestyle modification is usually the first line of intervention ,alongside exercise progression and diet change and the elephant in the room is your husbands smoking habits.

Thank you I did read through it , but honestly, my head is a mess so I couldn't make much sense of it, especially what goes with the severity of his occlusion . From the sounds of it, it's really bad.

Yes, the smoking is a non negotiable now. He has cut down, and made other lifestyle changes when this whole nightmare started last year but obviously not good enough.

OP posts:
Destiny123 · 22/01/2025 20:31

BlueSilverCats · 22/01/2025 19:19

So there is a point where the arteries are so diseased nothing can indeed be done? This doesn't help my worry, but if it's true , then I guess a second opinion is not needed?

Yes , he will quit smoking. Ironically, he was referred to a stop smoking clinic and that consultant wrote to the GP to prescribe meds to help, but they refused. He has cut down, but after today it's stopping.

He has quite an active lifestyle (manual work, mostly outdoors) and not overweight.

He is on statins.

They can often try if it's limb saving ie.acutely ischaemic but often unsuccessful as often the vessels they're trying to graft onto the inital problem are just as awful. It's super stressful when they're trying to do emergency cases

I'm an anaesthetist not vascular surgeon though, I'd def ask for a 2nd opinion

That's mad they've refused to prescribe, can he book in with the nurse for smoking cessation.appts - most gps won't prescribe outside of a treatment programme as there's a lot of evidence now that drugs alone aren't enough they need the ongoing support too (my mums been refused meds as didn't want to attend the classes/appts

Destiny123 · 22/01/2025 20:25

DeliciousApples · 22/01/2025 18:47

Maybe it's too dangerous because of his other health conditions to give him a general anaesthetic and that's why he's to stop smoking and lose weight?

If those things will help surely that's the place to start?

Very unlikely. Vascular patients are one of the most crumbly frail people we anaesthetise for (often with little choice when ischaemic limbs become infected or such and its life saving). We consent that they could be very high risk for not surviving but can't say ever not gone ahead unless imminently dying anyway which surgery wouldn't change the prognosis. We can do a lot of lower limb stuff under spinal anaesthetic and the surgeons are used to doing a lot under LA due to the nature of their patient group (if their leg vasculature is furred up the same will be said for their heart/brain/kidneys etc

Tofunoo · 22/01/2025 20:22

I’m sorry to hear this. I would definitely get a second opinion and if this is going to take a long time, try to go private if you can. Something is not adding up with the 2 different consultant opinions. And as the consequences for your OP could be severe I would have thought he’d want to be sure what the options are. Nothing stopping lifestyle changes alongside getting another opinion. Quite possibly not in this case, but I am aware that some Drs “fob off” people when the don’t have a great understanding of the illness or just want to get the patient off their list.